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Author Topic: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212  (Read 452 times)

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[MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« on: April 03, 2018, 03:42:43 AM »

Submission Information:

Series: Fire Emblem
Game: Fire Emblem Heroes
Console: Mobile
Title: Main Menu
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: Latios212
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Re: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2018, 03:43:58 AM »

Original:

Performance:
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 03:50:02 AM by Latios212 »
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Re: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« Reply #2 on: April 03, 2018, 04:56:19 AM »

I don't think the downbeats match a 7/4 time signature. I'd have written it in groups of three measures of 3/8, followed by one 5/8 measure, but I guess anything could work as long as it's /8 and not /4. Similarly, I hear the 8/4 measures as being at least divided into two measures of 4/4.

Also, in measures 12 to 15, I don't hear an A in any of the chords until the last beat of each measure, when it's played along with the D. I find the added one particularly jarring over the C#, since it would imply a C#m11(b6). (You also don't have any As in the Bm chords of the following section.)

Edit:

Two more issues: first, wouldn't you rather put an indication, either with the tempo mark (i.e. moderato e staccato) or in the first measure (i.e. non legato), along with slurs over the few notes that are legato, instead of putting staccato marks on literally every note? Second, there aren't any differences in articulation between the left-hand notes in measures 12 to 15; those are all the same arco staccatos, which I believe are typically written as portato (slurred staccatos) when ported over to the piano.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 05:36:34 AM by D3ath3657 »
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Re: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2018, 01:23:05 PM »

I don't think the downbeats match a 7/4 time signature. I'd have written it in groups of three measures of 3/8, followed by one 5/8 measure, but I guess anything could work as long as it's /8 and not /4. Similarly, I hear the 8/4 measures as being at least divided into two measures of 4/4.
I'm quite sure I want it to stay this way. The intro is definitely somewhat ambiguous given its pattern of 3+3+3+2+3, and I did consider writing it in 14/8. But later when the melody comes in at measure 5, that makes more sense in 7/4 given that many of its notes fall on the strong beats. The interlude from measures 12-15 also sounds much more like it's in quarters due to which beats are stressed, as do the measures I have notated as 8/4 later on. As such, I believe the accompaniment is just syncopated at times and it would be better to write in /4 instead of forcing everything to be in /8. About the 8/4, it better alternates with the 7/4.

Second, there aren't any differences in articulation between the left-hand notes in measures 12 to 15; those are all the same arco staccatos, which I believe are typically written as portato (slurred staccatos) when ported over to the piano.
May have partially been a stylistic choice, but this was deliberate as well. I wanted to subtly emphasize the beat by giving the left hand a pulse instead of having the chords just drone on monotonously.

Have to head out; will address the other two points later.
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Re: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2018, 11:13:16 PM »

I'm quite sure I want it to stay this way. The intro is definitely somewhat ambiguous given its pattern of 3+3+3+2+3, and I did consider writing it in 14/8. But later when the melody comes in at measure 5, that makes more sense in 7/4 given that many of its notes fall on the strong beats. The interlude from measures 12-15 also sounds much more like it's in quarters due to which beats are stressed, as do the measures I have notated as 8/4 later on. As such, I believe the accompaniment is just syncopated at times and it would be better to write in /4 instead of forcing everything to be in /8. About the 8/4, it better alternates with the 7/4.

It could also be the melody that's syncopated, as that would be an equally valid reason to emphasize the longer notes (which land on the beat in 7/4). I don't have too many examples of this, but that's how Fauré chose to write the Sanctus in his requiem, and I can say it wouldn't be the first time I've seen a Japanese composer with a taste for syncopated melodies. In any case, 7/4 time makes for really long measures when they contain many eighth and sixteenth notes, and my instinct would have been to split them up into alternating 4/4 and 3/4 measures in this case. This also avoids having to use that unseemly 8/4 time, and divides the phrases into sections of eight measures, which is standard. (I also find it rather unexpected that you in particular would choose to use such long measures.)

May have partially been a stylistic choice, but this was deliberate as well. I wanted to subtly emphasize the beat by giving the left hand a pulse instead of having the chords just drone on monotonously.

Finale's playback might perform repeated notes monotonously, but this shouldn't be expected out of human interpretations, even without any such markings; Beethoven, Schumann and others wrote plenty of passages with repeated block chords, but apparently they didn't feel the need to indicate that their music shouldn't be played in a boring manner. And even then, the first note of each beat would be more tenuto than the second, not staccato.
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Re: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2018, 12:16:25 AM »

It could also be the melody that's syncopated, as that would be an equally valid reason to emphasize the longer notes (which land on the beat in 7/4). I don't have too many examples of this, but that's how Fauré chose to write the Sanctus in his requiem, and I can say it wouldn't be the first time I've seen a Japanese composer with a taste for syncopated melodies. In any case, 7/4 time makes for really long measures when they contain many eighth and sixteenth notes, and my instinct would have been to split them up into alternating 4/4 and 3/4 measures in this case. This also avoids having to use that unseemly 8/4 time, and divides the phrases into sections of eight measures, which is standard. (I also find it rather unexpected that you in particular would choose to use such long measures.)
As I mentioned before, I did already test conforming the right hand melody to the left hand accompaniment's rhythm pattern. It really didn't make much sense to me...
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...especially when the similar figures return in the interlude from 12-15. The dotted eighth notes (A and D in measure 5) would be best written on the downbeats.

About my use of 7/4, there's a clear difference to me between this and, say, the chorus of "Lost in Thoughts". Here there isn't a clear distinction into two parts of each 7/4 phrase. In "Lost in Thoughts" chorus, for instance, the rhythm very explicitly repeats in groups of three, and the left hand plays a pattern that "resets" every three beats. In this song we don't such an obvious subdivision into 3 and 4 in each 7/4 phrase's 3+3+3+2+3 rhythm. You could say 3/4+4/4 to align the break point with the eighth note rhythm, but it seems arbitrary to me - the left hand does not "reset" a pattern here; it continues to play a figure that is seven beats long. Each 7/4 bar is one phrase, and to me does not lend itself to a natural subdivision into 3/4+4/4. I may not be a fan of long bars in general, but here I believe it best gets the point across without impeding readability. Again with the 8/4, it more naturally alternates with the 7/4 - and notes play every downbeat so there's never any confusion as to where the beat lies.

Finale's playback might perform repeated notes monotonously, but this shouldn't be expected out of human interpretations, even without any such markings; Beethoven, Schumann and others wrote plenty of passages with repeated block chords, but apparently they didn't feel the need to indicate that their music shouldn't be played in a boring manner. And even then, the first note of each beat would be more tenuto than the second, not staccato.
I'm fully aware of what my intent is and how it should sound performed - I linked a performance of this very sheet! As I mentioned above, this is simply my way of communicating my intent to the performer. You may not see the need to communicate this, but I want to write it this way to denote to the performer how I want the "pulse" to sound.

Also, in measures 12 to 15, I don't hear an A in any of the chords until the last beat of each measure, when it's played along with the D. I find the added one particularly jarring over the C#, since it would imply a C#m11(b6). (You also don't have any As in the Bm chords of the following section.)
I have the chords written as they are since that's the way I heard them and they created the texture I wanted. Regardless, I think of those chords as independent of the bass there which is just moving chromatically downwards.

Two more issues: first, wouldn't you rather put an indication, either with the tempo mark (i.e. moderato e staccato) or in the first measure (i.e. non legato), along with slurs over the few notes that are legato, instead of putting staccato marks on literally every note?
Not really. First, there aren't staccato notes on "literally every note", or even anything close to that. For one thing, the staccatos in my sheet distinguish the middle layer from the bass, which is not currently labeled as staccato. And I'm hesitant to use slurs because I don't really want any part of this section to be interpreted as legato, even the phrases with consecutive non-staccato notes.
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Re: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2018, 02:40:13 AM »

As I mentioned before, I did already test conforming the right hand melody to the left hand accompaniment's rhythm pattern. It really didn't make much sense to me...

Makes about as much sense to me as the left hand when it's written in 7/4.

About my use of 7/4, there's a clear difference to me between this and, say, the chorus of "Lost in Thoughts". Here there isn't a clear distinction into two parts of each 7/4 phrase. In "Lost in Thoughts" chorus, for instance, the rhythm very explicitly repeats in groups of three, and the left hand plays a pattern that "resets" every three beats. In this song we don't such an obvious subdivision into 3 and 4 in each 7/4 phrase's 3+3+3+2+3 rhythm. You could say 3/4+4/4 to align the break point with the eighth note rhythm, but it seems arbitrary to me - the left hand does not "reset" a pattern here; it continues to play a figure that is seven beats long. Each 7/4 bar is one phrase, and to me does not lend itself to a natural subdivision into 3/4+4/4. I may not be a fan of long bars in general, but here I believe it best gets the point across without impeding readability. Again with the 8/4, it more naturally alternates with the 7/4 - and notes play every downbeat so there's never any confusion as to where the beat lies.

Nowhere is it written that accompaniment motifs have to be regrouped into a single measure. If that were the case, the first chorus of "Lost in Thoughts All Alone" would be in 12/4, with the full left-hand pattern being the syncopated arpeggio repeated three times, followed by a dotted half note, and Chopin's op. 48 no. 1 (nocturne in C minor) would have to be in 2/4, because the motif is a bass in octaves followed by a chord.

The way I see it, measures 12–15 make it clear there's at least a separation between the first four quarter notes and the subsequent three, in each bar of 7/4. I also believe it should be taken into account that musical periods (I need to stop using "phrase" as a catch-all term) are most commonly made up of at least eight measures (which is why I initially transcribed "Lost in Thoughts" in 6/4—to divide each chorus into two phrases of four measures), though they can be longer (which is why I didn't complain much about the change to 3/4); currently, you confine each period within four measures (for example, measures 5–6 and 7–8 are clearly two phrases which are part of the same period).

I have the chords written as they are since that's the way I heard them and they created the texture I wanted. Regardless, I think of those chords as independent of the bass there which is just moving chromatically downwards.

I don't think omitting the A in the first five beats of each measure alters the texture significantly, but to me it actually sounds bulkier than the original when included. As for the chords, I just meant that C#m11(b6) has a very characteristic sound, and therefore I should have clearly noticed the presence of an A in that chord, had there been one.

Not really. First, there aren't staccato notes on "literally every note", or even anything close to that. For one thing, the staccatos in my sheet distinguish the middle layer from the bass, which is not currently labeled as staccato. And I'm hesitant to use slurs because I don't really want any part of this section to be interpreted as legato, even the phrases with consecutive non-staccato notes.

I was exaggerating when I said "literally", but that was just a thought which occurred to me. I shouldn't have lumped it in with the other points.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 03:08:34 AM by D3ath3657 »
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Re: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2018, 03:38:55 AM »

Makes about as much sense to me as the left hand when it's written in 7/4.
Again, context, what I said below the picture. Nothing aside from the 3+3+3+2+3 rhythm suggests a /8 meter for this song.

Nowhere is it written that accompaniment motifs have to be regrouped into a single measure. If that were the case, the first chorus of "Lost in Thoughts All Alone" would be in 12/4, with the full left-hand pattern being the syncopated arpeggio repeated three times, followed by a dotted half note, and Chopin's op. 48 no. 1 (nocturne in C minor) would have to be in 2/4, because the motif is a bass in octaves followed by a chord.
Never said they had to, and you're clearly exaggerating to stretch my words. There aren't any hard rules. This is just my trying to explain why I think it's best to have this in 7/4 and that in 3/4.

The way I see it, measures 12–15 make it clear there's at least a separation between the first four quarter notes and the subsequent three, in each bar of 7/4.
In this section, yeah, since the four bars repeat the exact same rhythmic figure. This subdivision of 7/4 into 4/4+3/4 isn't present anywhere else in the song.

I also believe it should be taken into account that musical periods (I need to stop using "phrase" as a catch-all term) are most commonly made up of at least eight measures (which is why I initially wrote "Lost in Thoughts" in 6/4—to divide each chorus into two phrases of four measures), though they can be longer (which is why I didn't complain much about the change to 3/4); currently, you confine each period within four measures (for example, measures 5–6 and 7–8 are clearly two phrases which are part of the same period).
Interesting thought! I still don't think it'd be worth it to forcibly subdivide the measures just to increase measure count, though.

I don't think omitting the A in the first five beats of each measure alters the texture significantly, but to me it actually sounds bulkier than the original when included. As for the chords, I just meant that C#m11(b6) has a very characteristic sound, and therefore I should have clearly noticed the presence of an A in that chord, had there been one.
I went back and gave this one some more thought to try and find justification for my previous self writing those in. It does sound fine without the A, but I think I did prefer the slightly "bulkier" texture because otherwise the middle of the measure emphasizes B a bit too much for my liking... I'll think about it a bit more.
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Re: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2018, 03:48:54 AM »

I went back and gave this one some more thought to try and find justification for my previous self writing those in. It does sound fine without the A, but I think I did prefer the slightly "bulkier" texture because otherwise the middle of the measure emphasizes B a bit too much for my liking... I'll think about it a bit more.

Just want to chime in on this real quick, since this is a subject that interests me. I think there's a number of advantages to the addition of A into these chords, such as it emphasizing the quartal quality of the chord's upper structure, as well as anchoring the progression on the 5th scale degree of the key as the progression drifts away from the key. But I think what interests me most is how this A naturally comes to one's ears, despite it not being explicitly audible in the OST. My hypothesis is that perhaps there's something missing texturally between the punchiness of spiccatto strings and the inevitable pedal-heavy execution on piano, and that the extra A helps to fill in that gap with its distinct bulkiness.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2018, 03:55:28 AM by Bespinben »
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Re: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2018, 04:34:25 AM »

Again, context, what I said below the picture. Nothing aside from the 3+3+3+2+3 rhythm suggests a /8 meter for this song.
Never said they had to, and you're clearly exaggerating to stretch my words. There aren't any hard rules. This is just my trying to explain why I think it's best to have this in 7/4 and that in 3/4.

Sorry. I'm definitely prone to exaggeration, but I wasn't trying to distort your words.

In this section, yeah, since the four bars repeat the exact same rhythmic figure. This subdivision of 7/4 into 4/4+3/4 isn't present anywhere else in the song.

Looking through it once more, it seems to me as though the sixteenth notes in the second half of beat 5 (measures 5 and 7) would fit this division as well, since they resemble the second half of beat one. In any case, I meant that, while attention isn't drawn to it outside of measures 12–15, it's not contradicted either, which is another reason why I don't think it should be ruled out.



Anyway, I believe I've gotten my point across. I'd be curious to hear another mod's opinion on the metre in this piece, however.
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Re: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2018, 07:26:13 AM »

I'm just here to pour petrol on the flames :P

As I mentioned before, I did already test conforming the right hand melody to the left hand accompaniment's rhythm pattern. It really didn't make much sense to me...
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It's perfectly countable and actually makes perfect sense because it's a hemiola. You see those in waltzes quite regularly, for example. I find this much easier to count in 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 3.

Having said that, the one thing that having a /8 time signature doesn't take in to account is that in bar 3 when the snare drum comes in, it plainly plays on every quarter note beat.

As for the later bits, there's nothing wrong with changing to or 7/4 at bar 12 and then changing back to 14/8 four bars later with 3+3+3+3+2.


So in the end, I don't know what I'd choose. Both have their merits and negatives. If it was my sheet, I'd do /8 but I'm not saying that's necessarily correct.
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Re: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2018, 01:16:22 AM »

Sorry. I'm definitely prone to exaggeration, but I wasn't trying to distort your words.
It's alright! Do try to be mindful of your tone when giving feedback though, else it could be ill-received.

Looking through it once more, it seems to me as though the sixteenth notes in the second half of beat 5 (measures 5 and 7) would fit this division as well, since they resemble the second half of beat one. In any case, I meant that, while attention isn't drawn to it outside of measures 12–15, it's not contradicted either, which is another reason why I don't think it should be ruled out.
For the right hand, perhaps, but the left hand doesn't strike a bass note on beat 5, so I still think it'd be a strange point to divide the measure at.

It's perfectly countable and actually makes perfect sense because it's a hemiola. You see those in waltzes quite regularly, for example. I find this much easier to count in 3 + 3 + 3 + 2 + 3.

Having said that, the one thing that having a /8 time signature doesn't take in to account is that in bar 3 when the snare drum comes in, it plainly plays on every quarter note beat.
That's interesting! Although I will admit that maybe the snare drum has been a large part of what's driving me to use 7/4 (I hadn't brought it up before). 7/4 still feels like the most solid option to me.

As for the later bits, there's nothing wrong with changing to or 7/4 at bar 12 and then changing back to 14/8 four bars later with 3+3+3+3+2.


So in the end, I don't know what I'd choose. Both have their merits and negatives. If it was my sheet, I'd do /8 but I'm not saying that's necessarily correct.
I could change to 14/8 temporarily, but I feel the sheet's naturally most coherent sticking to the /4 time signatures - that way there's a solid beat at 100BPM to follow the whole way through.

Thank you both for your input!
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Re: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2018, 08:20:35 PM »

Oi my friend, nice work (as usual)! I have two main things to offer, and little else.


- Measure 12, LH: This pattern of repeated eighth note chords (and everywhere else it appears), makes me wonder if you wouldn't want accents instead of staccatos here. I feel like just the emphasis will provide the sense of separation you're looking for, though you could also use the accent and staccato together. Staccato alone doesn't indicate the kind of stress I'm getting from the original.

- Measures 12-15: Consider placing some dynamics in here to help distinguish between what you would consider main melody and background responses. Unless you consider all main melody. Any way you want it is fine (even as you have it now); I just wanted to offer that thought to you in case you wanted to try playing with it.

Aside from these things, I certainly wouldn't mind signing off on this one.
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Re: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2018, 12:06:40 AM »

Thanks! ^_^

- Measure 12, LH: This pattern of repeated eighth note chords (and everywhere else it appears), makes me wonder if you wouldn't want accents instead of staccatos here. I feel like just the emphasis will provide the sense of separation you're looking for, though you could also use the accent and staccato together. Staccato alone doesn't indicate the kind of stress I'm getting from the original.
I sort of wanted the "separated" feeling here without actually putting any extra force to make it louder, if that makes any sense. This section is noticeably quieter than the rest of the song, and I wanted to keep the pulse going while keeping the left hand feeling light.

- Measures 12-15: Consider placing some dynamics in here to help distinguish between what you would consider main melody and background responses. Unless you consider all main melody. Any way you want it is fine (even as you have it now); I just wanted to offer that thought to you in case you wanted to try playing with it.
I think I'll keep it as is here. There's not a whole lot of dynamic variation here, and the change in register/octave I feel does a good enough job of differentiating each small phrase. Thanks for bringing it up though!
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Re: [MOB] Fire Emblem Heroes - "Main Menu" by Latios212
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2018, 01:16:29 AM »

Excellent.
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