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Author Topic: Pokémon Ultra Sun & Pokémon Ultra Moon  (Read 2680 times)

BlackDragonSlayer

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Re: Pokémon Ultra Sun & Pokémon Ultra Moon
« Reply #120 on: November 25, 2017, 08:36:01 PM »

Echo, I've been on Showdown and Smogon for USUM and I'll have to disagree with some of those evaluations:
Spoiler
Stakataka: Gigalith doesn't learn Trick Room and doesn't have a nuke 150 BP STAB. Stakataka has both (well, Gyro Ball has 150 BP against a lot of opponents given Stakataka's rock-bottom speed). It's a bit of a one-trick pony, as it doesn't have enough bulk to set both Stealth Rock and Trick Room, and not getting recovery sucks, but it tears holes in teams significantly more easily than Gigalith does.

Naganadel: Loads of people on Smogon are screaming that it should be banned to Ubers. I keep consistently being in "Do Not Ban" camps, but I do agree that Naganadel is powerful.

Blacephalon: I think you're looking at it wrong, Echo. I think it's more like what Victini and Darmanitan always dreamed they could be (well, except Victini has better bulk)--an absolute Fire-type nuke with a high-BP STAB. 107 base speed, while a flawed speed tier, is still better than Victini's base 100 speed and Darmanitan's lower-than-that. Blacephalon's frail enough that I don't tend to think of the first use of Mind Blown as having drawbacks.

Dusk Lycanroc: Mega Aerodactyl wishes it had powerful priority. Dusk Lycanroc has that in Tough Claws-boosted Accelerock, so it has a fairly good niche right there.
[close]
Stakataka's probably going to be great in Doubles (combination of Trick Room and Wide Guard to help keep it safe), no doubt, but will likely fall to PU, NU, or RU in Singles because of its awful typing.

Naganadel is kind of weird because it can do a lot of stuff, but all of its sets have major flaws. Scarf? Not enough initial power. Specs? Gets revenged killed easily before it sets up, and walled easily regardless. Nasty Plot? Is extremely frail and pretty much has no opportunities to set up in the first place.

Blacephlaon is good, but tricky to use, and being walled by Tyranitar doesn't help it at all. Probably best with Scarf so it doesn't have to worry much about being outsped/revenge killed or having a lack of initial power.

Dusk Lycanroc will be lucky if it's UU lol. It should've had the stat distribution I wanted it too; then, it would definitely be a solid UU/OU pick as a glass cannon.
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Echo

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Re: Pokémon Ultra Sun & Pokémon Ultra Moon
« Reply #121 on: November 26, 2017, 12:45:00 PM »

Omggg in Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, apparently if you go to the Game Freak office holding a transferred Pokémon from the 3DS port of Pokémon Silver, the director says this:

“When we were having trouble fitting all the data in for Gold and Silver, and we were really in a pinch, this amazing guy came along and made a program for us that solved all our problems. He went on to become the amazing president of a real big company soon after that, too.”

Dang, still miss him to this day...

On a brighter note, those comments are actually pretty interesting, like Exeggutor being the favourite Pokemon among the original staff. Seems that love carried on in this gen, since I feel that Alolan-Exeggutor was the most inspired out of the Alolan Forms.

*snip*

Spoiler
Stakataka: If you want a strong Gyro Ball and Trick Room setup over Sandstream, then fair enough.

Naganadel: Uh... So I say I think it's strong, you're telling me that other people think it's too strong, and then you're saying that you think it's strong too. I don't see where your "disagreement" is. :P

No comment on whether it should be banned or not. Just in general when I think about playing anything "competitively," I don't care to think about how things should be balanced, because that's other people's jobs. I just think of how to enjoy using the strategies I think are the best until they get banned or nerfed or whatever.

Blacephalon: I compared it with fast, frail special attackers with Gengar being my go-to due to their similar types and flaws. You compared with Fire-type attackers specifically. I compared it that way because stuff like Gengar or Greninja are actually used frequently, unlike Pokemon like say, Darmanitan or Chandelure. It's much more likely that when you're building a team that you're gonna be looking for a fast special attacker first and work out what type/moveset you want to round out the team afterwards, then be like "I want a frail Fire-nuke on my team."

Lycanroc: Why does a Pokemon with 150 base speed wish it had priority? lol

Here's the way I'll sum it up: You point out things that certain Pokemon do uniquely, without pointing out how those make those Pokemon more effective. Like I said, Stakataka's high damaging move and speed control, fair enough. But something like Blacephalon being compared to other Fire-types is short-sighted, because more often than not you care more about the high damage output in general instead of specifically needing a Fire-type on your team (not a particularly good type at the moment with stuff like Tyranitar, Greninja, Heatran, among others running around, etc.). Same goes for Lycanroc. Yes, it has a priority Rock-move, but how is that any better than Mega Aerodactyl when it's outspeeding pretty much anything with any of its moves (especially an Ice one)?
[close]

Naganadel is kind of weird because it can do a lot of stuff, but all of its sets have major flaws. Scarf? Not enough initial power. Specs? Gets revenged killed easily before it sets up, and walled easily regardless. Nasty Plot? Is extremely frail and pretty much has no opportunities to set up in the first place.

Blacephlaon is good, but tricky to use, and being walled by Tyranitar doesn't help it at all. Probably best with Scarf so it doesn't have to worry much about being outsped/revenge killed or having a lack of initial power.

Nasty Plot is the set you want for Naganadel. Not entirely because of Nasty Plot specifically, but rather how Dragonium-Z solves the flaws you're thinking of with the Choice items. In practice, it gives you the needed power boost initially, then snowballs from there because Beast Boost gives you the Speed to avoid being revenge-killed (turning Draco Meteor into a no drawback, 100% accurate, +1 Speed move is super fair). Setup opportunities might change later as people adjust their teams, but for now enough people are playing stuff that'll get threatened by Sludge Wave/Flamethrower for you to sack a Pokemon and bring in Naganadel (Ferrothorn, Scizor, etc.).  Naganadel's defense is below average, but it's not paper-thin to the point where'll you get KO'd by entry hazards and a priority move (excluding like Ice Shard), so it more often than not can get the turn it needs even if you do take a hit.

Blacephalon's just in a funny position. It's golden when your opponent doesn't have T-tar/Heatran, but everyone's playing Tyranitar so it might as well be dead-weight.
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BlackDragonSlayer

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Re: Pokémon Ultra Sun & Pokémon Ultra Moon
« Reply #122 on: November 26, 2017, 09:36:20 PM »

Nasty Plot is the set you want for Naganadel. Not entirely because of Nasty Plot specifically, but rather how Dragonium-Z solves the flaws you're thinking of with the Choice items. In practice, it gives you the needed power boost initially, then snowballs from there because Beast Boost gives you the Speed to avoid being revenge-killed (turning Draco Meteor into a no drawback, 100% accurate, +1 Speed move is super fair). Setup opportunities might change later as people adjust their teams, but for now enough people are playing stuff that'll get threatened by Sludge Wave/Flamethrower for you to sack a Pokemon and bring in Naganadel (Ferrothorn, Scizor, etc.).  Naganadel's defense is below average, but it's not paper-thin to the point where'll you get KO'd by entry hazards and a priority move (excluding like Ice Shard), so it more often than not can get the turn it needs even if you do take a hit.
The problem is that that still only works against frail teams. You still lack the +1 power that you need to get a guaranteed KO something (cause if you don't, you're dead), still lack in your ability to set up a Nasty Plot, and are still outsped by revenge killers before you get that speed boost.

EDIT: Wait, was it actually just banned from OU? How predictably laughable. :<
« Last Edit: November 26, 2017, 09:41:32 PM by BlackDragonSlayer »
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Echo

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Re: Pokémon Ultra Sun & Pokémon Ultra Moon
« Reply #123 on: November 26, 2017, 10:36:16 PM »

The problem is that that still only works against frail teams. You still lack the +1 power that you need to get a guaranteed KO something (cause if you don't, you're dead), still lack in your ability to set up a Nasty Plot, and are still outsped by revenge killers before you get that speed boost.

EDIT: Wait, was it actually just banned from OU? How predictably laughable. :<

Naganadel doesn't actually get one shot by neutral hits often, you need to get hit by something that's super-effective or had a +2 boost or something. Z-Move solves the "power" issue, because Z-Draco Meteor does one shot a ton of things, and then you get a +1 Speed boost off of that KO. With a lack of Dugtrio, there's like no good way to trap and revenge kill it, letting Naganadel either be a hit and run nuke or an endgame sweeper. Again, I don't care about "balance" or "ban" discussions, but Naganadel was not as flawed as you're trying to make it out to be.
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SlowPokemon

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Re: Pokémon Ultra Sun & Pokémon Ultra Moon
« Reply #124 on: November 26, 2017, 11:27:51 PM »

I’m having a good time with Ultra Moon. I’m just through Diglett Tunnel.

Team:
Edgy / Dartrix
Jinxie / Smoochum
Twinkay / Inkay
Sleepy / Hypno
Howler / Lycanroc (Dusk)
Ely /Flaaffy

I had a few others but also I have been catching a TON of Pokémon and nicknaming them all, basically going with whatever I think of first which has resulted in some hilarious names? They’re all like strange tenuous connections like naming Oranguru “Julius” (orange julius) or just goofy things like naming Yungoos “Yerngus”

Later I’ll go through my PC and post some of the funnier ones so far
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FireArrow

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Re: Pokémon Ultra Sun & Pokémon Ultra Moon
« Reply #125 on: November 29, 2017, 07:33:19 AM »

Stakataka/UB Assembly: Just use Gigalith. Pretty much the same thing but gives a free Sandstorm

Are they really comparable? Gigalith is a sandsetter with SR and Explosion. Stakataka is a wall breaker/trickroom sweeper with gyro ball.
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Echo

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Re: Pokémon Ultra Sun & Pokémon Ultra Moon
« Reply #126 on: November 29, 2017, 08:24:46 AM »

Are they really comparable? Gigalith is a sandsetter with SR and Explosion. Stakataka is a wall breaker/trickroom sweeper with gyro ball.

Just a disclaimer, I wrote that I valued Gigalith more because I wrote that with Naganadel being around in mind.

Anyways, they have similar stats, similar types, and they both play like defensive tanks with similar coverage. You could play either or both in a Trick Room team, with the trade-off (like you said) being that Stakataka can set it up himself and has more offensive presence with Gyro Ball, while Gigalith's Sand offers a special defense boost against the new threats like Naganadel and Blacephalon and can Explode for switching opportunities.

The reason I thought Gigalith's Sand had more potential is because that while Trick Room leads to you building a completely anti-meta team, you could use Gigalith to help against the meta while still playing meta threats yourself. For example, Explosion was good in testing, because weakening something and then switching in your Naganadel was great, because then they're in a 50/50 where they either sack their Pokemon and let you get a Beast Boost, or you take advantage of the switch and Nasty Plot up. Besides that, Sand lets you play Excadrill, which outsped Naganadel even with a Speed boost, and a fast Earthquake threatened a lot of common stuff like Naganadel, Blacephalon, Tyranitar, Heatran, Magearna, etc. Not to mention that Excadrill's Rapid Spin ended up being good to deal with Rocks/Webs without having to worry about Bisharp like Defog users would.

So yeah, I did compare them pre-ban because they're both Rock-type tanks that you could use in Trick Room teams, but I thought Gigalith had more merit because it could work with Naganadel and provide more ways to deal with Naganadel before it was banned.

Wait, was it actually just banned from OU? How predictably laughable. :<

What's really laughable is that they keep trying to balance 6v6 battles, when Gamefreak just gave up and offered 3v3 and Double Battles instead.

To be fair to them though, Z-Move nuke + Nasty Plot Naganadel played pretty much like Z-Move nuke + Quiver Dance Pheromosa, so it'd be hard to justify them letting Naganadel stay if they insisted on banning Pheromosa.
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