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Improving at Playing Piano

Started by braix, April 14, 2015, 06:25:53 PM

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MaestroUGC

Quote from: Raymondbl on April 15, 2015, 10:19:29 PMWe should have a tinychat improvisation battle sometime in the summer.
Many men have tried.

Many men have died.
Try to do everything; you're bound to succeed with at least one.

Raymondbl

Quote from: MaestroUGC on April 16, 2015, 06:00:30 PMMany men have tried.

Many men have died.
I don't doubt it. :P In fact, tell me via thread or pm if you have improv time this weekend and what time, because I can't wait. nice parallelism and rhyming, btw
The purpose of life is to survive.  Deal with it.

Pianist Da Sootopolis

If you don't get it, no worries. It's something that comes more over time.

As far as that PoV being too academic- Think of it as... I don't know, lets say martial arts versus street fighting. If you train it badly, the wrong way, train at a crap dojo, then common sense and experience will of course win out. But if you train somewhere really good, you'll be above all the people simply relying on what they already know how to do.
Not an exact metaphor. Hopefully it got the point across.
I don't find it to be formulaic at all, more like, "Oh, I can use this here!" or, "this next phrase is a big moment, let's crescendo up to it! Or, I could die away first and make it a big surprise!"
If you simply think of music as a message you have to relay, often our interpretitive choices get a little dry, and stay within the same range of feelings- you can only communicate a feeling of majesty so many ways by thinking about as big and grandiose, but thinking about it as a nationalistic dance is different :)
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mikey

I feel like improv is one of those things that's tricky at first but once you get the hang of cord qualities it gets easier
unmotivated

MaestroUGC

I guess, but improve always came easy to me. I've known musicians who've studied their whole lives who can't improvise worth a damn, so it's not necessarily a learnable skill for some people.
Try to do everything; you're bound to succeed with at least one.

Raymondbl

#20
Quote from: Pianist Da Sootopolis on April 16, 2015, 08:46:44 PMIf you don't get it, no worries. It's something that comes more over time.

As far as that PoV being too academic- Think of it as... I don't know, lets say martial arts versus street fighting. If you train it badly, the wrong way, train at a crap dojo, then common sense and experience will of course win out. But if you train somewhere really good, you'll be above all the people simply relying on what they already know how to do.
Not an exact metaphor. Hopefully it got the point across.
I don't find it to be formulaic at all, more like, "Oh, I can use this here!" or, "this next phrase is a big moment, let's crescendo up to it! Or, I could die away first and make it a big surprise!"
If you simply think of music as a message you have to relay, often our interpretitive choices get a little dry, and stay within the same range of feelings- you can only communicate a feeling of majesty so many ways by thinking about as big and grandiose, but thinking about it as a nationalistic dance is different :)
Ehh, that metaphor isn't that good because the difference between martial arts and street fighting would be more similar to the difference between practicing only pieces and practicing scales/finger exercises. When I think martial arts vs. street fighting, I think technical precision. And a strong technical base is crucial towards translating your feelings to the keyboard.

I find it the opposite - by having the mindset of "using" a certain type of phrasing, the range of feelings is severely limited, because it's not a feeling anymore. It's just a crescendo, or it's just a decrescendo - the original meaning, the nuances of that crescendo or decrescendo is lost.

Many times, a single phrase can portray accurately its meaning even when you think to use one thing here, or another thing here. But then, when the exact same formula (exact same rubato timing, exact same dynamic change) is applied to every single instance of the phrase, regardless of the context of those instances (what comes before, what comes after), the effect is lost and it sounds like just a formula.

Other times, you know from the beginning that this guy is using such a cliche rubato when the mood doesn't match up with the rubato that he's not feeling the music and only using a formula.

While this is likely an exaggeration, it is said that some great musicians never play the same piece the same way twice. I think that's because their playing is influenced by the particular mood they're feeling at the moment.

This debate is so subjective that it can't really be decided. I think comparisons of these two types interpretations on a single piece of music could help demonstrate both our points.

edit: I agree with you on the majestic tone/nationalistic dance thing, but that could support either of our arguments - the pianist could feel it as having a noble character, or he/she could play it with a prideful character, depending on his/her preference and current state of mind.
The purpose of life is to survive.  Deal with it.

Pianist Da Sootopolis

Forgive my unclear wording. What I mean to say, is that these kinds of phrasings and rubato should be more in your head, and you can know where to apply these; I'm not saying to look through a piece in advance, and find the spots that need rubato, and plan it out. The quote about a pianist never playing the piece the same way twice I believe came from Rubinstein, btw.
"I find it the opposite - by having the mindset of "using" a certain type of phrasing, the range of feelings is severely limited, because it's not a feeling anymore. It's just a crescendo, or it's just a decrescendo - the original meaning, the nuances of that crescendo or decrescendo is lost. "
(Given this, this is probably subjective and very different for different pianists.) What, I meant was not to think of crescendos and the like academically, but rather, know when to use them (although I see how my original post conveyed that), instead of relying on pure preconceived notion (which is what the sense of feeling is). It also varies, of course, from music period to music period, and even then it varies with composer- you wouldn't want to play the Appassionata the same way you'd play a Mozart or Haydn sonata, for example.
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Raymondbl

Crescendos and decrescendos and other types of phrasing are abstract terms that generally represent increases or decreases in volume. While I still don't think you should know "when to use them," I do think that you should know about them, and other theoretical terms, like cadences and German sixths. Knowing about them and exploring them can strengthen your musical sensitivity because it exposes and impresses you with a wider variety of feelings.
Also, I think that when you consciously decide on using certain patterns, it's harder to improvise and come up with different interpretations to play.
If you have a microphone and want to converse about this with your piano at your side, add me on skype: raymondbliu
The purpose of life is to survive.  Deal with it.

Pianist Da Sootopolis

Quote from: Raymondbl on April 18, 2015, 08:40:41 PMCrescendos and decrescendos and other types of phrasing are abstract terms that generally represent increases or decreases in volume. While I still don't think you should know "when to use them," I do think that you should know about them, and other theoretical terms, like cadences and German sixths. Knowing about them and exploring them can strengthen your musical sensitivity because it exposes and impresses you with a wider variety of feelings.
Also, I think that when you consciously decide on using certain patterns, it's harder to improvise and come up with different interpretations to play.
If you have a microphone and want to converse about this with your piano at your side, add me on skype: raymondbliu
I'll talk to you more on Skype in a bit~ Don't know when I'll be able to talk like the way you described, though.
For what it's worth, I think we agree on more than we realize XD
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