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What key/time signature is this song in?

Started by The Deku Trombonist, March 24, 2013, 03:27:01 PM

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Jompa

Quote from: NocturneOfShadow on May 03, 2015, 11:59:05 AMhe didn't want them explained he just wanted to know what they were
That's an even better reason for someone else to write another explanation.
Birdo for Smash

FierceDeity

Alright, at a computer. Now let me clarify why that needs a little elaboration haha

Quote from: NocturneOfShadow on May 03, 2015, 11:03:58 AMThey represent an octave played using only the white keys, Ionian is starting and centered on C, Dorian is starting and centered on D, Phrygian is starting and centered on E, etc.

So not including that fix above, which is kinda necessary when explaining to somebody entirely new to modes, there are a few things:
-What you described are only the "church modes" (though that term can also be applied to Gregorian modes apparently, who knew); there are countless other modes that exist, though those are the main ones of concern.
-That doesn't really describe what modes are, only how to play them in C. The way you stated it also implies that they're only ever using natural notes, which I'm sure you know isn't true. So don't oversimplify.

So, here's my explanation of modes:

long af
A mode is very much like a scale; the distinction between the two is pretty arbitrary, and people will generally understand you whether you say "dorian mode" or "dorian scale". Some modes are literally called scales. The whole tone scale, for example, is called a mode. So, really, just think of modes as types of scales for now.

The church modes (which as I look more into it it's starting to seem as if the name isn't wholly agreed upon) are essentially like Nocturne said. The major scale is known as Ionian, and you can find the other six related church modes by starting on a different note of the scale. So, I'm just going to write out the original scale in two octaves and shift over the bold to show where (one octave of) the scale lies within the C major scale.

C Ionian, starting on the first pitch of the major scale:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
D Dorian, starting on the second pitch of the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
E Phrygian, starting on the third pitch of the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
F Lydian, starting on the fourth pitch of the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
G Mixolydian, starting on the fifth pitch of the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
A Aeolian (natural minor), starting on the sixth pitch of the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
B Locrian, starting on the seventh pitch of the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C

However, this approach isn't really so useful for understanding modes as it is for playing them on a piano. As one of my professors described it, it ascribes a "C-centric" (or whatever pitch is the tonic of the Ionian mode) quality to them that doesn't exist. The modes themselves have their own centers in their scales' starting pitches. So, here's another way to think of it, based on the C Major scale (C D E F G A B C) and C natural minor scale (C D Eb F G Ab Bb C), with altered pitches in bold:

-Lydian is like a major scale with a raised fourth. (C D E F# G A B C).
-Ionian is a major scale.
-Mixolydian is like a major scale with a lowered seventh (C Mixolydian = C D E F G A Bb C).
-Dorian is like a natural minor scale with the sixth raised (C D Eb F G A Bb C), or a major scale with the third and seventh lowered (C D Eb F G A Bb C).
-Aeolian is like a natural minor scale, or a major scale with the third, sixth, and seventh lowered (C D Eb F G Ab Bb C).
-Phrygian is like a natural minor scale with the second lowered (C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C), or a major scale with the second, third, sixth, and seventh lowered (C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C).
-Locrian is like a natural minor scale with the second and fifth lowered (C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C), or a major scale with the second, third, fifth, sixth, and seventh lowered (C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C).

The first three (Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian) are considered to be major modes, as the triad starting on the root of each is a major triad (C E G).
Similarly, the next three (Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian) are considered to be minor modes, as the triad starting on the root of each is a minor triad (C Eb G).
Locrian isn't really considered to be either, as the triad starting on its root would be diminished (C Eb Gb).
The only reason I really included how to get to the minor modes based on the major scale is because it ties into a way of ordering the modes, and that's by the amount of notes lowered (or raised); this is the way I used to order them in that list. Though not every scale will necessarily use sharps or flats in this manner (for example, these modes based on F# ionian would never have any flats), I'm just going to use b and # to indicate whether a note is lowered or raised from the major scale.

Lydian: #4
Ionian: N/A
Mixolydian: b7
Dorian: b3, b7
Aeolian: b3, b6, b7
Phrygian: b2, b3, b6, b7
Locrian: b2, b3, b5, b6, b7

So, as you can see, the altered pitches are sort of cumulative, ranging from Lydian as the "most raised", and Locrian as the "most lowered".

Locrian isn't really illegal so much as not really used as the main mode of many pieces, as it is extremely difficult to establish a tonal center with it. Because of the b5, as mentioned earlier, there is no major or minor "tonic chord" to come back to, nor is there really the possibility of a diatonic (meaning its notes are part of the scale) chord with dominant (meaning it leads back to the tonic) function.

My last bit on the church modes (Jompa I know you're going to disagree with me on this lol):
For key signatures, it's generally accepted if you write the closest major or minor key signature (i.e. C major for C lydian, ionian, or mixolydian, and C minor for C dorian, aeolian, phrygian, or locrian), and just use accidentals for the altered pitches. However, according to literally every theory textbook or professor I've ever consulted, as well as several examples in unrelated classes, it's also perfectly acceptable to just write down the number of sharps or flats in the mode, i.e. 4 flats for C phrygian.

And then one tidbit on other modes:
There are other modes than these. For example, modes based on the harmonic minor scale, or Messiaen's modes of limited transposition (whole tone, octatonic, and then some more theoretical stuff that doesn't get used as often). You don't necessarily have to know them, but know that there are more than just 7, haha.
[close]

Sebastian

Quote from: FierceDeity on May 03, 2015, 02:43:32 PMAlright, at a computer. Now let me clarify why that needs a little elaboration haha

So not including that fix above, which is kinda necessary when explaining to somebody entirely new to modes, there are a few things:
-What you described are only the "church modes" (though that term can also be applied to Gregorian modes apparently, who knew); there are countless other modes that exist, though those are the main ones of concern.
-That doesn't really describe what modes are, only how to play them in C. The way you stated it also implies that they're only ever using natural notes, which I'm sure you know isn't true. So don't oversimplify.

So, here's my explanation of modes:

long af
A mode is very much like a scale; the distinction between the two is pretty arbitrary, and people will generally understand you whether you say "dorian mode" or "dorian scale". Some modes are literally called scales. The whole tone scale, for example, is called a mode. So, really, just think of modes as types of scales for now.

The church modes (which as I look more into it it's starting to seem as if the name isn't wholly agreed upon) are essentially like Nocturne said. The major scale is known as Ionian, and you can find the other six related church modes by starting on a different note of the scale. So, I'm just going to write out the original scale in two octaves and shift over the bold to show where (one octave of) the scale lies within the C major scale.

C Ionian, starting on the first pitch of the major scale:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
D Dorian, starting on the second pitch of the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
E Phrygian, starting on the third pitch of the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
F Lydian, starting on the fourth pitch of the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
G Mixolydian, starting on the fifth pitch of the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
A Aeolian (natural minor), starting on the sixth pitch of the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
B Locrian, starting on the seventh pitch of the C major scale:
C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C

However, this approach isn't really so useful for understanding modes as it is for playing them on a piano. As one of my professors described it, it ascribes a "C-centric" (or whatever pitch is the tonic of the Ionian mode) quality to them that doesn't exist. The modes themselves have their own centers in their scales' starting pitches. So, here's another way to think of it, based on the C Major scale (C D E F G A B C) and C natural minor scale (C D Eb F G Ab Bb C), with altered pitches in bold:

-Lydian is like a major scale with a raised fourth. (C D E F# G A B C).
-Ionian is a major scale.
-Mixolydian is like a major scale with a lowered seventh (C Mixolydian = C D E F G A Bb C).
-Dorian is like a natural minor scale with the sixth raised (C D Eb F G A Bb C), or a major scale with the third and seventh lowered (C D Eb F G A Bb C).
-Aeolian is like a natural minor scale, or a major scale with the third, sixth, and seventh lowered (C D Eb F G Ab Bb C).
-Phrygian is like a natural minor scale with the second lowered (C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C), or a major scale with the second, third, sixth, and seventh lowered (C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C).
-Locrian is like a natural minor scale with the second and fifth lowered (C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C), or a major scale with the second, third, fifth, sixth, and seventh lowered (C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C).

The first three (Lydian, Ionian, Mixolydian) are considered to be major modes, as the triad starting on the root of each is a major triad (C E G).
Similarly, the next three (Dorian, Aeolian, Phrygian) are considered to be minor modes, as the triad starting on the root of each is a minor triad (C Eb G).
Locrian isn't really considered to be either, as the triad starting on its root would be diminished (C Eb Gb).
The only reason I really included how to get to the minor modes based on the major scale is because it ties into a way of ordering the modes, and that's by the amount of notes lowered (or raised); this is the way I used to order them in that list. Though not every scale will necessarily use sharps or flats in this manner (for example, these modes based on F# ionian would never have any flats), I'm just going to use b and # to indicate whether a note is lowered or raised from the major scale.

Lydian: #4
Ionian: N/A
Mixolydian: b7
Dorian: b3, b7
Aeolian: b3, b6, b7
Phrygian: b2, b3, b6, b7
Locrian: b2, b3, b5, b6, b7

So, as you can see, the altered pitches are sort of cumulative, ranging from Lydian as the "most raised", and Locrian as the "most lowered".

Locrian isn't really illegal so much as not really used as the main mode of many pieces, as it is extremely difficult to establish a tonal center with it. Because of the b5, as mentioned earlier, there is no major or minor "tonic chord" to come back to, nor is there really the possibility of a diatonic (meaning its notes are part of the scale) chord with dominant (meaning it leads back to the tonic) function.

My last bit on the church modes (Jompa I know you're going to disagree with me on this lol):
For key signatures, it's generally accepted if you write the closest major or minor key signature (i.e. C major for C lydian, ionian, or mixolydian, and C minor for C dorian, aeolian, phrygian, or locrian), and just use accidentals for the altered pitches. However, according to literally every theory textbook or professor I've ever consulted, as well as several examples in unrelated classes, it's also perfectly acceptable to just write down the number of sharps or flats in the mode, i.e. 4 flats for C phrygian.

And then one tidbit on other modes:
There are other modes than these. For example, modes based on the harmonic minor scale, or Messiaen's modes of limited transposition (whole tone, octatonic, and then some more theoretical stuff that doesn't get used as often). You don't necessarily have to know them, but know that there are more than just 7, haha.
[close]
Thank you so much! That helps so much! Wanna be my theory instructor? ;)



Jompa

QuoteJompa I know you're going to disagree with me on this lol
However, according to literally every theory textbook or professor I've ever consulted, as well as several examples in unrelated classes, it's also perfectly acceptable to just write down the number of sharps or flats in the mode, i.e. 4 flats for C phrygian.
Nonono. I would disagree if you didn't know what you're talking about (because I believe that for newbies it is a damaging way of thinking), but if one has a reflecting mind (which is not the case in literally every case (except here with you(!))) they should do what they want.
Though it should be noted that what's most commonly accepted as correct is to do the "tonic+is it minor or major?"-thing, and I strongly support it for the fact that if anyone's gonna benefit theroy- and harmony-wise from the sheet, it is literally 10 times better to have something written in what the tonic dictates.
There's also a lot of circumstancial stuff that supports this (like how often something isn't strictly inside a modes boundries through a whole song, which makes it really silly to start having accidentals for those kinds of notes), but if one knows what's going on and just wanna make a sheet playable, then I think it's fine. Not sure if I think the site's rules should allow it though, but THAT is just me.

The point of modes:
A starting point for where a piece's tonality is comming from (very much like how a song is either "minor" or "major").
Pretty much consists of a set bunch of notes that will be used to define this.
So they're kinda like keys, both notationwise and listeningwise (like an undercategory).
Basically, using modes in music is just a way to variate the tonal language from the usual major/minor (though one can hardly call it "variation" anymote), and one is free to use modality in whatever degree they want (if it's like one measure in a song, or the entire song, or switching between like eight modes).
It's actually really easy to hear what mode a piece is in (even the more crazy modes) if one starts to pay attention to them and learn their cliches.
Birdo for Smash

mikey

you guys can go ahead and talk about them all you want I'll just play and write with em
unmotivated

Jompa

Well if you're gonna do that, this:
QuoteThey represent an octave played using only the white keys
is not nearly good enough knowledge required to do so (actually it's not even correct, in more ways than one).
Birdo for Smash

Tobbeh99

Need some help! This song confuses me, don't know what tempo and time signatures it's in. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIErOhorUQE
Quote from: Dudeman on August 16, 2016, 06:11:42 AM
tfw you get schooled in English grammar by a guy whose first language is not English

10/10 tobbeh

Sebastian

It sounds like 4/4 or 12/8 (since there are so many triplets)



mikey

sounds like it might have a couple of cadenzas or it switches to like 3/4 occasionally, but for the most part it sounds 4/4 to me
unmotivated

Pianist Da Sootopolis

what is shitpost

Jompa

I'd write it in 12/8, having duplets for where there are straight eights.
Birdo for Smash

Tobbeh99

Ok so I sorted out the time signature problem by doing as Jompa said: writing it in 12/8 with duplets. However I have a small problem at the end of the song:
Around 0:20 there are some fast notes, and I don't know the note value of them, given that the previous notes were 16th notes(in 12/8 ofc.). They seem like a 16th quatruplet with 4 64th notes and one long punctuated 8th at the end, but I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIErOhorUQE
Quote from: Dudeman on August 16, 2016, 06:11:42 AM
tfw you get schooled in English grammar by a guy whose first language is not English

10/10 tobbeh

Jompa

You should definitely just do a trill between those two notes before it lands at that echoing note (the echoing is in duplet eights, if you're going to include that).
Birdo for Smash

Tobbeh99

well I just made as I said: quatruplets with four 64th notes+dotted 8th. And then I made the echo in the left hand clef. Looks ok I think. Here it is:[ZIP]
Quote from: Dudeman on August 16, 2016, 06:11:42 AM
tfw you get schooled in English grammar by a guy whose first language is not English

10/10 tobbeh

FireArrow

Quote from: Dudeman on January 23, 2017, 05:35:59 PM
straight from the department of redundancy department