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Author Topic: What key/time signature is this song in?  (Read 65011 times)

Ricky

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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2013, 05:43:51 PM »

We can hear that it is the mode "eolian" - which basically is minor. Something to note is that songs in eolian mode usually focus a lot on a sharpened seventh, which this song does!
It's called aeolian but either way aeolian mode itself doesn't include the sharpened seventh. The more general minor scale in which aeolian or natural minor is often freely interchanged with harmonic minor or melodic minor does. Ofc, a piece in an aoelian key (note: not minor scale) can include chromaticism but not necesarily the sharp 6th or sharp 7th kind.
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Jompa

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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2013, 07:15:01 PM »

A minor harmonic you mean.
That's right, but harmonic minor isn't a mode, so I didn't want to use that word when I was already talking about modes and stuff - harmonic minor is minor, so saying it's aeolian isn't wrong, but it is very unprecise - however I didn't wanna make it more complicated, I mean when writing for harmonic minor you just use the aeolian mode anyway, and add the loose accidental for sharpened seventh.
It's called aeolian but either way aeolian mode itself doesn't include the sharpened seventh. The more general minor scale in which aeolian or natural minor is often freely interchanged with harmonic minor or melodic minor does. Ofc, a piece in an aoelian key (note: not minor scale) can include chromaticism but not necesarily the sharp 6th or sharp 7th kind.
I know, I know - it doesn't include a sharpened seventh, but that doesn't expel them - as I said above, I was talking about modes anyways, so suddenly calling it harmonic minor would be complicating things.
Besides, I didn't listen to much of the clip, I just rushed through the start, so if I were to say it was in harmonic minor - but later, the song uses normal sevenths - I would have been wrong.
There are a bunch of sharpened fourths here too, but that doesn't make it hungarian minor because they don't necessarily happen every time.
I never knew it could get so complicated  :o
Well, this is more or less the easy part of arranging, in my book.
But then it could be F# minor right? Or it could be a different mode. Maybe E major but no Ds were played in the arranged section.
There is a technique to this.
Yeah, the only technique is to use something pitched to find the tonic - which you should be able to hear in your head while listening to the song.
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Ricky

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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2013, 07:20:30 AM »

Well, a scale equals a mode in my opinion. Ofc we have the church modes or western modes (however you would like to call them) which specifically are Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian. But harmonic minor for example is also a mode imo. And yes I guess you can sort modes into minor or major. Aeolian, dorian, phrygian and the many modifications such as harmonic minor are typically sorted into the minor category.
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Clanker37

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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2013, 10:51:14 AM »

But then it could be F# minor right? Or it could be a different mode. Maybe E major but no Ds were played in the arranged section.
Well, I also match the chords. Like if the F,C  and G's were sharpened, but it was to a minor chord in the first bar, I would auto-assume F# minor. However, this has tricked me when ever I get a ii-V-I variation or something. Basically I pick out major or minor before I start arranging.
Well, this is more or less the easy part of arranging, in my book.
Yeah, I find it extremely easy as well using my method, but I just haven't covered many of the modes in my learning yet, so when you guys go all Lydian and Aeolian I'm like ._.

Ricky

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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2013, 12:10:56 PM »

Well, I also match the chords. Like if the F,C  and G's were sharpened, but it was to a minor chord in the first bar, I would auto-assume F# minor. However, this has tricked me when ever I get a ii-V-I variation or something. Basically I pick out major or minor before I start arranging.Yeah, I find it extremely easy as well using my method, but I just haven't covered many of the modes in my learning yet, so when you guys go all Lydian and Aeolian I'm like ._.
Watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jl8lSHLHDcA
and you will know at least some about the lydian and aeolian amongst other modes.
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Jompa

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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2013, 02:52:35 PM »

Well, I also match the chords. Like if the F,C  and G's were sharpened, but it was to a minor chord in the first bar, I would auto-assume F# minor. However, this has tricked me when ever I get a ii-V-I variation or something. Basically I pick out major or minor before I start arranging.
This way, you don't need to actually arrange the chords before you find out the key - and there is the danger of a song being in a weird mode, so if you don't hear out the tonic first, you risk putting the wrong key signature if you don't pay attention.
All you need to find is the tonic - that's all - the one tonic note of the song - and after that you go on to modes, and the actual arranging.
Quote
Yeah, I find it extremely easy as well using my method, but I just haven't covered many of the modes in my learning yet, so when you guys go all Lydian and Aeolian I'm like ._.
They are very easy to learn - both to hear and the theory. :) I understood them completely the same day I chose to research them.
Well, a scale equals a mode in my opinion. Ofc we have the church modes or western modes (however you would like to call them) which specifically are Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian. But harmonic minor for example is also a mode imo. And yes I guess you can sort modes into minor or major. Aeolian, dorian, phrygian and the many modifications such as harmonic minor are typically sorted into the minor category.
Well - you can name a scale after a mode - like saying "Oh, when I improvised just now I only played a mixolydian scale descending" or something like that.
But saying they are the same thing isn't correct.
And when I am talking about modes - I think I mean the church modes (I am really sorry if I have referred to them wrong, but I'm not english speaking, so when it comes to translating terms, I might be a bit off). I mean the Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian, not including scales like minor blues, japanese pentatonic etc.
If by just "mode" you include harmonic minor, melodic minor and so on with all types of scales: Well, we don't really have a term for that in Norwegian (we just say that the song is in X), so I probably said something wrong - As I said, I have meant church modes all along, so that's why.
Warning, me playing smart-ass: Locrian also counts as minor  ::)
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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #36 on: April 04, 2013, 04:20:59 PM »

Harmonic and melodic minors are not modes in and of themselves. They're more like exceptions to the rules that are commonly used and accepted because they sound good/cool/neat.
Aeolian mode is the minor mode. Natural minor, only the natural minor, and nothing but the natural minor.
Locrian also counts as minor.
Because it is the relative minor of the dominant, yes.

Harmonic/melodic minors are not their own modes, but only variations to the aeolian mode.

I'm hoping to revive my Music Theory Q/A topic and once I finish the next "all you need to know on basic key signatures", I'll put one up on modes.
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Ricky

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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #37 on: April 04, 2013, 05:22:49 PM »

Well, actually Locrian mode can be referred to as a diminished mode but ofc it has more minor characteristics than major ones. So it can be counted as minor. Alright, if we count only the church modes as modes then indeed these are the only (western) modes. I guess the rest of the scales can be sorted into other groups like for example pentatonic.

I recommend a book called "Modal Music Composition" by Stephen M. Cormier whether you are into composition and such or just want to learn some new music theory. He gives a new approach (as in non-medieval or reneissance) to how modes can be used today not just as minor (no pun intended) details in certain compositions but for complete compositions and compete with the major/minor system. Lots of things such as characteristics, progressions, stability, modulation, cadences, chromaticism etc. are described. He suggests three scalar dyad alternatives to the major/minor system: Ionian/Aeolian, Mixolydian/Phrygian and Lydian/Dorian.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2013, 05:25:01 PM by Ricky »
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JDMEK5

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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #38 on: April 04, 2013, 05:28:37 PM »

Well, actually Locrian mode can be referred to as a diminished mode...
You're right, but I meant the locrian can be harmonicized/melodicized similar to a minor key because the chord is the relative minor of the dominant.
My fault for not explaining that.
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Jompa

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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2013, 05:50:59 PM »

Funny how everyone's contaminated by my smart-ass virus after that locrian comment :P
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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2013, 07:40:48 PM »

Funny how everyone's contaminated by my smart-ass virus after that locrian comment :P
That's what happens when you get a group of perfectionists and a vague statement.
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Yugi

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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2013, 08:40:47 AM »

I'm arranging this, but I don't want to end up having the wrong key/time sig.

So can someone please find it out for me.

BTW, learing how to arrange entire songs by ear, so I shouldn't have to use this topic after a while.
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Jompa

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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2013, 01:38:42 PM »

It is in C major with Lydian traits.
Time signature is 2/4 - but if you feel like it you could instead use 4/4.
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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2013, 12:19:46 AM »

I get how you can figure out a key signature by ear (it's pretty easy) but how do you do time signatures. I'm horrible at counting, so I end up going 4/4 and if something is weird about it, I change it to something that makes more sense (and even then, it's probably in the wrong time signature.)
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Re: What key/time signature is this song in?
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2013, 12:42:03 AM »

o_o youre joking right. I cant figure out a key signature without basically doing the entire song first, while time signatures are easy XD

I'm probably not the best person to give advice but I'll do it anyway :P

Normally I listen to the lower notes in the song (or maybe just the background notes). 3/4 timing would be strong-weak-weak for the three beats in each measure, while 4/4 timing would be strong-weak-medium-weak. those are the only two i know When i listen to the song I just tap that out and if it fits, it fits
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