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Hosting and Balancing

Started by Bird, January 04, 2013, 04:40:59 PM

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mikey

unmotivated

mikey

I'm working on a TWG and I might need help balancing it.  Anyone interested who's willing to forfeit playing?
unmotivated

MaestroUGC

Try to do everything; you're bound to succeed with at least one.

Dudeman

#288
Well, I got bored and made up another game (yay number two). I know there's a game going on currently but I just wanted to post it while it was on my mind.

TWG: Convergence Zone

All lynch votes are messaged privately to the game host.

Colored Cardflips are in effect.


Wolves:
1. Tridus: Has a one-use vigilante upon death.
2. Blind: Can seduce one character each night phase to force them to vote during the following day phase for whatever player Blind chooses. Cannot use her power if Deaf uses hers.
3. Deaf: Wolf Roleblocker. Can prevent the Seer from using their power during any Night phase. Cannot use her power if Blind uses hers.
4. Cil: Starts on the side of the wolves and has the wolf win conditions, but is told he is a normal human. Wolves are not told Cil's identity. If Cil is lynched, he flies into a rage and kills one other player selected at random. In the thread it is publicly announced that "Cil flew into a rage and killed <role>!" Cil's player is messaged "You are Cil. You have killed <role>." If Cil publicly claims his role at any time from this point forward, he switches to the human side and gains the human win conditions.

Humans:
5. Agrith: Is told he is a normal human. If he dies, Tridus dies without using his vigilante UNLESS Agrith is killed by Cil's rage.
6. Vintash: Is told she is a normal human.
7. Othek: Is told he is a normal human.
8. Rofut: Is told she is a normal human.
9. Tirall: Is told the identities of Cil, Jogul, Tridus, and Blind/Deaf, but not which is which.
10. Sekka: Immortal Seer. If Sekka is wolfed, his spirit will leave his body and inhabit a random, normal human who will become the new seer. The new seer will remain green. This power transfer only occurs once.
11. Jogul: The Fool. If the Fool dies, the game is over and the Fool wins UNLESS Jogul is killed by Cil's rage. Jogul is immune to wolfing on Night 1. If Jogul is wolfed on Night 1, it will be announced that "Jogul avoided an early demise!" and he will survive. Is told he is the Fool.

Elements:
Each human (including Cil) possesses an element. If a player votes to lynch a player who is weak against their element, their vote will count for double.
- Agrith: Fire. Double against Cil and Jogul.
- Vintash: Wind. Double against Othek and Agrith.
- Othek: Water. Double against Agrith and Tirall.
- Tirall: Earth. Double against Vintash and Sekka.
- Sekka: Lightning. Double against Othek and Jogul.
- Jogul: Jungle. Double against Tirall and Rofut.
- Rofut: Stone. Double against Cil and Sekka.
- Cil: Ice. Double against Vintash and Rofut.

Wolves who aren't Cil know each other.
Wolves win if the number of wolves is equal to or greater than the number of remaining humans. If this condition is met while Cil is aware of his role and is still a wolf, Cil may choose to remain a wolf and win automatically OR join the humans to try and lynch the wolves.
Humans win if all the wolves are lynched/killed.
Jogul wins if he is killed by something other than Cil's rage.

Not nearly as complex as the first game I posted (imho, though I still want to go back to that one and tweak it). Anything I should be made aware of?
Quote from: braixen1264 on December 03, 2015, 03:52:29 PMDudeman's facial hair is number 1 in my book

Dudeman

Balancing question from a rookie TWG'er (who is tweaking a previous game idea): how does one effectively discredit seer counterclaims? Is there a way? Or do the players (and, by extension, the guardian) have to rely on pure intuition?
Quote from: braixen1264 on December 03, 2015, 03:52:29 PMDudeman's facial hair is number 1 in my book

FireArrow

In your game no one would even think about counterclaiming seer.
Quote from: Dudeman on January 23, 2017, 05:35:59 PM
straight from the department of redundancy department

BlackDragonSlayer

This is based off an old (disasterous) TWG I hosted over on LLF way back in the day. I don't imagine we'll be able to host it here any time soon, but it's always been an aspiration of mine to host a balanced version of this game!!!

TWG: The Legend of the Calamities — Caldo de Siete Mares Redux
(Based on TWG 83: Caldo de Siete Mares)

All good legends must have an end, no? And I believe last time, you... fell asleep before I had finished my tale. Perhaps this time, you'll listen to some of the finer details? Good. Now, let me fetch my old book and begin once again...

In the ancient past, when the world was all Ocean, there was a Man. This Man lived on a small island in the Ocean, eating coconuts and various fruits which fell from the trees on the island. Sometimes, the Man went fishing, but he was never satisfied: the small animals in the Ocean were too small to enjoy, and the large animals in the Ocean were too large to hunt. One day, the Man, dissatisfied with his condition, climbed atop the tallest tree on the island and reached towards the heavens. He reached further, and further, until he finally grabbed a piece of star. The Man threw this piece of star into the oceans, and from it sprung various sea creatures. The Man was happy, but he did not know that he had awoken the Calamities...

Wolves:
1: The Fisherman: Can wolf one person every night. Can survive two night kills (which includes both brutals and vigis). Every time a Special dies, he gains a power corresponding to its power. Is informed when a special dies.

The Calamities:
2: Havoc: Can vigi one person each night.
3: Misery: Each night, can attempt to negate one special's power for one night/day. If their power is negated when they die, the Fisherman does not get their power.
-: Chaos: The seed of destruction planted by the other two Calamities. Before the game begins, Chaos will be given its role PM and will be given the option to absorb the powers of either the Halibut, the Tuna, or the Octopus. If Havoc or Misery dies, may sacrifice its chosen power to instead inherit their power. It may only do this once per game.

Specials:
4: The Shrimp: Every night, as long as it is alive, players may submit a PM telling who they want to be seered. The person voted by the majority will have their color publicly revealed. If killed, the Fisherman gains control of what color the person is seered as.
5: The Abalone: Has two revives for the entire game. If he revives a person that can survive multiple night kills, they only come back with one health. Is told who is unrevivable. If killed, the Fisherman gets a single-use revive.
6: The Halibut: If killed, he can brutal any person. However, the Fisherman also gets a Brutal power. Is told they're a Trilobite.
7: The Mussel: May guard a person every night. If killed, the Fisherman can change one person's color for the rest of the game.
8: The Crab: Can vigi one person each night. If killed, the Fisherman gets a single-use vigi.
9: The Tuna: Is Charismatic. If killed, the Fisherman gets a Charismatic power. Is told they're a Trilobite.
10: The Octopus: If a special is killed Night 1, The Octopus takes on that special's role and negates the power gain of the wolf. The dead special becomes unrevivable. Cannot be negated by Misery Night 1. Is told they're a Trilobite until their power activates.

Humans:
11: Rainbow Fish: Always seers as green under any circumstance. Is told they're a Trilobite.
12: Trilobite
13: Trilobite
14: Trilobite
15: Trilobite
16: Strong Trilobite: Can survive two night kills (which includes brutals, vigis, and wolfings). Is told they're a Trilobite.
17: Megalodon: Can survive two night kills (which includes brutals, vigis, and wolfings). Is told they're a Trilobite.

Third Party:
18: The Eel: Always mischievous, every night, the Eel may select a player. The chosen player's seering results will come out as "inconclusive" for that night. Vote counts as zero. Is not affected by any of the specials' powers, but will be affected by the Fisherman's or Calamities' powers. Wins when it has successfully obscured three players (any player will count except for the Rainbow Fish or if roleblocked).


The Wolves and Calamities know each other's identities.

It is announced whenever somebody is attacked, even if they were not killed.


Wolves: Win when all six Specials are dead. Can win if dead, but only if the Calamities win. Cannot win when humans win. Does not override the Calamities' victory.
Calamities: Win when number of Humans and Specials = number of Calamities. Does not override the wolf victory.
Humans: Win when the Calamities and The Fisherman are dead.
Third Party: Wins when it has successfully obscured three players. Can win alongside any faction.

The game ends if the Humans or Calamities have reached their victory condition.

Additional Clarifications
The Mussel cannot guard itself.

If two or more specials are killed Night 1, the one which the Octopus takes over for is randomized.

Misery must target a player; if that person is not a special or the Eel, nothing happens.

If all of the Calamities are dead, then the wolf victory condition will end the game.

Self-votes are not counted. The Charismatic power cannot be turned off.

Guarding does not prevent roleblocking. If the ballot box seering is roleblocked, it will be stated that results were inconclusive. If the revive is blocked on the night it would have been used, the revive will be used up.

If the charismatic is roleblocked, the player will only have one vote. If the charismatic votes for the Eel, the vote will only count as one.
[close]
And the moral of the story: Quit while you're a head.

Fakemon Dex
NSM Sprite Thread
Compositions
Story Thread
The Dread Somber

BlackDragonSlayer

TWG: It Comes in Phases

During this game, night phases and day phases are combined into one 72 hour-long phase, meaning that players vote and submit night actions all in the same phase. The Wolf and Half-Wolf know each other's identity.

Wolves:
1. Wolf: Every phase, the Wolf submits the name of a player to be wolfed. The original wolf also has access to a seering power.

Humans:
2. Half-Wolf: Wins with the wolves, but counts as a Human. If the Wolf dies Phase 1, the Half-Wolf becomes a Wolf (without a seering).
3. Seer: Every phase, they may select a player to be seered; they are then notified of that player's color.
4. Human
5. Human
6. Human
7. Human

Wolves win when there is only one human player left, or when both the Wolf and Half-Wolf are alive and only one other Human remains. Humans win when the Wolf has been eliminated.

Host Clarifications:
(any mechanics clarifications will be added here if necessary. Feel free to ask questions!)
- No lynch is not an option. Instas are off due to the nature of the game.
- If a player with an action does not submit their action, no action goes through.
- Color cardflips are on.
- It will be specified whether a player is lynched or wolfed (or both if such a thing occurs).
And the moral of the story: Quit while you're a head.

Fakemon Dex
NSM Sprite Thread
Compositions
Story Thread
The Dread Somber

BlackDragonSlayer

I get the feeling this game will need a lot of tweaking before we get the balance right. If people don't like the idea of using the TWG alt accounts, the game can function without them.

Some ideas for potential balance changes:
- Potentially turn the Millwright into a normal green human, and get rid of orange as a painting option. On the flip side, potentially have one of the wolves be orange by default?
- Making the regular Wolf be the only wolf who can control the wolfing (and rename them to the "Head Wolf" or something like that). If there are two people with the wolfing Wolf role they each can submit a wolfing pick if they so choose, but only one person will be wolfed. Conversely, if there is no living wolfing Wolf, then there is no wolfing.
- Potentially make one of the human roles a Charismatic Human (vote counts as two).

TWG: Those Who Will be Reborn

At the beginning of the game, everyone is told their role, and which alt account is assigned to them. However, they do not use the alt account at the beginning of the game. During any phase, a player can choose to "kill" themselves off and be "reborn" as their alt account, which will take effect at the end of the current phase. Each alt account is assigned a role from the same role list, except completely independently of the main player list.

Wolves:
1. Painter Wolf: Every night, they can pick one player and change their color to either red, green, blue, or orange for that night phase and the next day phase.
2. Wolf

Humans:
3. True Seer: Every night, they may select a player to be seered; they are then notified of that player's original color regardless of which color they have been painted. Are told they are a regular seer.
4. Seer: Every night, they may select a player to be seered; they are then notified of that player's current color.
5. Mad Painter: Every night while they are alive, a random player is painted either red, green, blue, or orange for that night phase and the next day phase.
6. Human
7. Millwright: Is told they're a normal Human.
8. Miller: Is told they're a normal Human.

Wolves win when there are no humans currently living. Humans win when all wolves have been eliminated and there are no more players alive who can potentially become a wolf.

Host Clarifications:
(any mechanics clarifications will be added here if necessary. Feel free to ask questions!)
- No lynch is an option.
- Color cardflips are on, and reveal the player's apparent color (taking into account paintings).
- The Painter Wolf's painting will supersede the Mad Painter's painting if they happen to target the same player.
- If a player with a night action does not submit their action, no action goes through.
- It is publicly announced when a player is "reborn."
- All players who are currently Wolves are aware of the other current Wolves' identities. They are not told which alt accounts are wolves until they have been reborn.
And the moral of the story: Quit while you're a head.

Fakemon Dex
NSM Sprite Thread
Compositions
Story Thread
The Dread Somber

mastersuperfan

#294
not sure if anyone still looks at this, but potential idea for a new game that might be interesting. it's just a pretty basic sketch of the idea and hasn't been balanced, but curious to hear people's thoughts:

(currently wip, being edited)

---

TWG: Operation Banana

Wolves:
1. Donkey Kong
2. Diddy Kong

Humans:
3. King K. Rool: At the start of each day, gets notified how many barrels each player currently possesses. Cannot deliver barrels to other players. If he possesses at least one barrel, he will survive being raided (but all his barrels will be taken).
4. Kremling
5. Kremling
6. Kremling
7. Kremling
8. Kremling

Game is night start. All humans start with 1 barrel at the beginning of the game; wolves start with none. Each night, for each barrel they have, every player (except King K. Rool) can choose to (a) hold onto it or (b) deliver it to any other player.

Each night, instead of normal wolfkills, the wolf team can perform both of the following actions:
- Raid: raid someone's house. If the target held onto any barrels that night, that wolf seizes them. Additionally, if the target did not deliver barrels to any other player, they are nightkilled. (Any barrels delivered to a nightkilled target are lost for good.) Players will not be told whether their house was raided.
- Intercept: stake out the transport route between any two (human) players. If any barrels are delivered between these two players that night, that wolf obtains them instead. (The sender won't know that it was intercepted; the receiver won't know that they were supposed to receive those barrels.)

Wolves can also exchange barrels between them during night phases. The transfer will go through at the end of the phase.

At the start of each day, every player is informed how many barrels they have. The wolf team will be informed how many barrels each wolf obtained through raiding or interception that night.

One lynch per day (insta's on, no cardflips, no-lynch allowed). Any barrels held by a lynch victim will be lost for good.

Humans win when all wolves are dead. Wolves win at parity or if no living humans possess any barrels.

Full OC; wolves know each other's identity.

---

curious to hear people's thoughts! I'm not sure about the balance (it seems like hunting down the last package might be a coinflip for the wolves), but I'm sure there's room to give special powers to either side to even it out.
Quote from: NocturneOfShadow on February 11, 2016, 03:00:36 PMthere's also a huge difference in quality between 2000 songs and 2010 songs
Quote from: Latios212 on February 11, 2016, 03:29:24 PMThe difference between 2000 songs and 2010 songs is 10 songs.

Nakah

Quote from: mastersuperfan on March 12, 2024, 09:43:58 AMcurious to hear people's thoughts! I'm not sure about the balance (it seems like hunting down the last package might be a coinflip for the wolves), but I'm sure there's room to give special powers to either side to even it out.


    The idea of packages meaning something is kind of cool in the background, but the titles for the roles seem a bit hardcore/fringe inappropriate for an online bbc forum board for nintendo sheet music from a 'Moderative' point of view. Perhaps if the concept were the same, yet the theme were based something more soft like bandits vs. detectives....with like shady packages of stolen golden bananas from DKC or something lol.

   Mean that in a positive way, like the elementals of the game are there, but there's also some question's I'd have...(like why can the receiver not hear that their package was intercepted?) Or why can there not be a repercussion for the deliverer that tried to send a package if it gets intercepted...say like a red flag or something noted on them during day phase...that way people only try to send packages tactically out of fear of interception, and only the caught get exposed. Idk other ideas of that nature to expand the game idea.


   Does this also mean that each would can choose to do both actions? Thus 4 possible actions happening by the wolf team per night phase?

mastersuperfan

Quote from: Nakah on March 12, 2024, 10:30:40 AMThe idea of packages meaning something is kind of cool in the background, but the titles for the roles seem a bit hardcore/fringe inappropriate for an online bbc forum board for nintendo sheet music from a 'Moderative' point of view. Perhaps if the concept were the same, yet the theme were based something more soft like bandits vs. detectives....with like shady packages of stolen golden bananas from DKC or something lol.
that's a fair point :p I updated it. I guess I didn't think it was out of the ordinary given that this style of game is based on the mafia in the first place, but maybe that's why it's TWG here

I'll see if I can think of something more thematic later

Quote from: Nakah on March 12, 2024, 10:30:40 AMMean that in a positive way, like the elementals of the game are there, but there's also some question's I'd have...(like why can the receiver not hear that their package was intercepted?) Or why can there not be a repercussion for the deliverer that tried to send a package if it gets intercepted...say like a red flag or something noted on them during day phase...that way people only try to send packages tactically out of fear of interception, and only the caught get exposed. Idk other ideas of that nature to expand the game idea.
hmm I guess I thought of the players as the ones not actually making the deliveries, like they send it through the mail or a mule or something lol.

I definitely had it in my mind that I wanted to incentivize town to send packages more than sitting on them, hence why sending is "safer" than keeping them. that way, it would mostly be a game of strategy for the mafia to deduce who likely has packages and who's likely to send to whom. but I also was thinking if there was a way to incentivize the wolves to raid more, like if there was a human role with special powers but who also always got nightkilled upon a raid regardless of whether they held onto packages or not.

Quote from: Nakah on March 12, 2024, 10:30:40 AMDoes this also mean that each would can choose to do both actions? Thus 4 possible actions happening by the wolf team per night phase?
each wolf would pick one of the two.
Quote from: NocturneOfShadow on February 11, 2016, 03:00:36 PMthere's also a huge difference in quality between 2000 songs and 2010 songs
Quote from: Latios212 on February 11, 2016, 03:29:24 PMThe difference between 2000 songs and 2010 songs is 10 songs.

BlackDragonSlayer

Quote from: mastersuperfan on March 12, 2024, 09:43:58 AMTWG: Operation Banana
Just saw this. It seems like a super interesting idea; but as of right now, it seems much easier for the wolves to win, since they can either win by parity or barrel shenanigans. For balance with 8 players, I think it would be a good idea to limit the wolf team to a max of 2 successful kills. Otherwise, in theory, wolves could win by end of Night 2 without humans being able to do much about it.

It might also be a good idea to make King K. Rool immune to the first incident of either Raid OR Intercept (cause otherwise he can be nightkilled N1 and the humans have a lot less info to work with). Alternatively to this idea, just add some sort of Kremling who can keep players safe from wolf shenanigans, which gives the human team more control.
And the moral of the story: Quit while you're a head.

Fakemon Dex
NSM Sprite Thread
Compositions
Story Thread
The Dread Somber

mastersuperfan

#298
Quote from: BlackDragonSlayer on March 14, 2024, 05:46:16 PMJust saw this. It seems like a super interesting idea; but as of right now, it seems much easier for the wolves to win, since they can either win by parity or barrel shenanigans. For balance with 8 players, I think it would be a good idea to limit the wolf team to a max of 2 successful kills. Otherwise, in theory, wolves could win by end of Night 2 without humans being able to do much about it.

It might also be a good idea to make King K. Rool immune to the first incident of either Raid OR Intercept (cause otherwise he can be nightkilled N1 and the humans have a lot less info to work with). Alternatively to this idea, just add some sort of Kremling who can keep players safe from wolf shenanigans, which gives the human team more control.

thanks for the feedback! from a first passover I didn't think it was too wolf-sided since there's also a good chance the wolves whiff the first night or two (I'd hope the humans would be sufficiently unpredictable so as not to lose n2!) but that's a good point. I suppose it might be a pretty high variance game in general; I plan to run some simulations over the weekend to see how likely it is for either team to win, if players just pick actions at random

I like the idea of giving K Rool an extra hit; maybe one idea would be that K Rool takes a total of two raids to kill, so he won't die upon the first raid, but if his identity gets revealed, wolves can kill him in one night by raiding him together.

a medic could be interesting but I wouldn't want them to be able to protect K Rool, I don't like the idea of K Rool revealing and then getting shielded every night as wolves hunt down the medic

some other ideas I was toying with include:
- the wolves being able to do one raid + one interception each night, instead of picking individually. (I'm definitely wondering quite a bit how to balance the wolf powers w.r.t. the number of wolves left, since I want them not to be too crippled if one gets lynched d1 but also not too overpowered if 2-3 humans are dead by d1 or n2 ish)
- having a human who can see which players visited a given player each night
- KKR being unnightkillable if Donkey Kong is dead (but probably it's more important to protect KKR earlygame rather than lategame)
Quote from: NocturneOfShadow on February 11, 2016, 03:00:36 PMthere's also a huge difference in quality between 2000 songs and 2010 songs
Quote from: Latios212 on February 11, 2016, 03:29:24 PMThe difference between 2000 songs and 2010 songs is 10 songs.

davy

Things have gotten a bit confusing now that MSF's game no longer matches his responses to other suggestions but I try my best to offer feedback anyways.

Unless the game is specifically balanced for it (like the Get into te Bag game) I prefer wolves not losing half their powers when one of them dies, so I'd prefer that the wolves get two night actions anyway.

Be aware that any kind of protection you give to KKR increases the chance of him revealing himself and becomming an alliance leader.

Intercept is significantly more likely to whiff than raid, as it requires two correct guesses rather than one. With that logic, humans should always be trading barrels, but that runs the risk of sending barrels to the wolves. So any pair of two players could start the game with a request to trade barrels, making them safe from raid. If no barrel is obtained from the trade, the player traded with is a wolf, unless the wolves successfully managed to intercept the trade. If both players obtain a barrel, they clear each other of being a human and can claim so in the topic, meaning further deliveries to them are relatively safe, other than the fact that the wolves can intercept them, and reducing the lynch pool.

Looking at the game like that makes it seem quite human-sided. Is there any downside to having the wolves start with a barrel as well?
Quote from: NocturneOfShadow
[davy]'s in a way different time zone so basically he pops in at like 2 AM and posts 500 words and wins the game