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[Paper Reviver]

Well, let's get this party started!

I am the Paper Reviver. Paper vigi and nullifier, please claim to me!

Are players notified if they got nullified at the end of the night? This is especially relevant for nullifiers that got nullified, but for the other two it can also be relevant to know that there was a double target.

[In]

In

Now in something unrelated to forum TWG (and I apologise if it therefore doesn't belong here): in a couple of months I'll be at a bachelor's party of a good friend of mine, with a total of 12 people, which is pretty ideal for a werewolf game, but a little too many people for most other games. Problem with playing TWG irl is that it is an elimination game, and having to just sit there and watch while the other people keep playing isn't very fun.

So I have been thinking about playing a 12 player (or 11 player 1 host) TWG variant without elimination. Unfortunately, the ones I know cap out at 10 players (Avalon and Secret Hitler) or have a bit too much randomness and unbalance for my liking (Saboteur with expansion).

So I've been thinking about designing such a game by myself, but most of my experience designing TWG's has been with elimination, so I was wondering if any of you have any suggestions of what kind of non-elimination TWG I can play and how it can be balanced for 12 players.

Things have gotten a bit confusing now that MSF's game no longer matches his responses to other suggestions but I try my best to offer feedback anyways.

Unless the game is specifically balanced for it (like the Get into te Bag game) I prefer wolves not losing half their powers when one of them dies, so I'd prefer that the wolves get two night actions anyway.

Be aware that any kind of protection you give to KKR increases the chance of him revealing himself and becomming an alliance leader.

Intercept is significantly more likely to whiff than raid, as it requires two correct guesses rather than one. With that logic, humans should always be trading barrels, but that runs the risk of sending barrels to the wolves. So any pair of two players could start the game with a request to trade barrels, making them safe from raid. If no barrel is obtained from the trade, the player traded with is a wolf, unless the wolves successfully managed to intercept the trade. If both players obtain a barrel, they clear each other of being a human and can claim so in the topic, meaning further deliveries to them are relatively safe, other than the fact that the wolves can intercept them, and reducing the lynch pool.

Looking at the game like that makes it seem quite human-sided. Is there any downside to having the wolves start with a barrel as well?

Discrediting TZP/THC would not have aided in my survival. They were the two people who I knew could still use their vote, so they were the last people I wanted to piss off, and it would have been basically impossible to convince the two people who had the seer results to completely ignore them. You were basically asking me to put my life on the line for you, which is something I couldn't do. I did feel bad, but I had no other choice if I wanted to win.

There was no way for me to know at that stage of the game who were on the naughty list, but I see where you're comming from. Though teaming up with me and acting like you're  teaming the other one in is something I could see both TZP and THC doing, meaning I could see a world where you'd be able to convince THC that I'm the grinch.

It would be neat to have a chatroom game, at least as a trial! Though, I will say that chatroom availability may make the problem worse and overall require heavier player involvement; I remember a game in the past where I was suspected solely for the fact that I never showed up in the chat at all (simply because I was too busy or burned out to do so, IIRC).

I find it takes less time of me to pop into a chatroom every now and then than to formulate a well-researched post every day, which is why I think chatroom would at least help me.

This was my first time playing a Fool (or Jester if you prefer) role. When I saw I rolled it, I was like: this is easy, I always get (almost) lynched, so I just need to play ever so slightly worse than I usually do, BDS will point out all the flaws I'm making and I'll get lynched.

It already started with my very first post: With the Grinch's ability, my calls on red and green seering were completely wrong, and the Grandma seering was very shakey at best. Oddly enough I didn't get too much suspicion from that, and I was quite dissapointed to not see BDS jump on my flaws.

When I realised I would be at an event that would end around the time for D1 end, I realised I could use it to my advantage to just not play for the last 24 hours and self-safety. I remembered having precedent for self-safetying, but did not realise how long ago that was and that barely any one from that era was currently still playing. Despite that, once I explained myself after D1, no one brought it up again, so I don't think it was that bad of a play.

The "I'm worried about Grandma and Grinch teaming up" was 100% an invitation. Really disappointed that the only player to point that out in topic was the one player that should have been able to realise that was going on and could clearly have teamed up with me at that point, yet didn't.

Wednesday I really did have a bad day that took the energy out of me. I was actually planning to make an analysis post, but just couldn't muster the energy for it. In hindsight, I'm kinda glad I didn't, since the D2 events would have made it instantly irrelevant.

Orange seering going public left me with little options, as I outlined in my PM to Oricorio. Unfortunately, I was too caught up in my plans to not lose the game that I neglected to point out to Oricorio how discrediting THC and TZP would aid in his survival. Bit of a shame that, as I do think discrediting TZP/THC would have given Oricorio a better chance at surviving than the towncred he gained from betraying me (though he won, so appearantly it was a winning move).

The "Good luck surviving this, BDS" was made because I felt wolf!Oricorio made a sub-optimal play by betraying me, and therefore I believed him to be the miller, which left only BDS as a possible grinch to me (Xiao was also possible, but I believed there wouldn't have been a N1 wolfing then). Also, just to create some chaos, as that's what a 3rd party that has already lost is supposed to do.

When I saw Oricorio's vote for me, I jumped on the opportunity to push for my last chance to win. I fully expected Oricorio to change his move at the last moment, so I was hoping TZP's unvote would only happen so late into the phase that Oricorio couldn't change his vote anymore. However, in my rush to get TZP to co-opperate with me, I neglected to mention that. After TZP changed his vote, I kept refreshing to see if Oricorio would change his vote, so I could take him down in revenge, but told myself I needed at least 15 seconds to confirm if taking revenge would remove my chances of winning or if there were none to begin with. So A+ timing on that, Oricorio, just a little earlier and I might have changed my vote. Though I'm kinda surprised THC didn't do the same, as him changing his vote to Oricorio would actually win the game for his team.

Speaking of THC, I hope you don't role seer in the near future. Nobody's going to believe you if you do.

As a final note, I'm not too big of a fan of the direction the meta seems to be moving here, where people are human read if they put considerable effort in the game, and wolfread otherwise. When I returned from my event on Tuesday, I spent 2 hours defending myself and didn't even get to analysing other players, which was what also discouraged me from posting those thoughts on Wednesday (along with my shitty day). I really can't justify spending so much time on this game every day for an entire week, and it's making me second guess if I even want to continue playing on here.

Though I think it would help if we could re-introduce a chatroom. Since A# hasn't played the last couple of games, are there any players remaining that have objections to using discord?

[Davy]

Welp, figures my big play doesn't pay off.

Davy

Have fun with the rest of the game, townies! And good luck surviving this, BDS!

This may be a bit of a crackpot theory, but THC may be Grandma. In this world, the Seer would be math, Toby (either of which would be unfortunate for THC as he was hoping to get counterclaimed) or Xiao who hasn't shown up yet. He "seered" davy as Grandma, deflecting from him being Grandma, while "red-checking" me and parking a vote on BDS for a vague reason, the point of which would be to piss off the two most active players. However, there are a couple holes in this theory. Firstly, that THC apparently claimed privately to TZP before SoD2, which I don't see why he would do that if the claim was meant to look bad. Secondly, davy seems to have largely disappeared as if he realized that his wincon isn't plausible to achieve, granted he was on and off in terms of activity before.

I'm not sure if any kind of theory about THC can be a crackpot theory. Heck, it wouldn't even surprise me if THC is just a towny claiming seer. That has precedence.

No, I said I didn't want to prove myself wrong. It could have proven me right, but it was just as likely to prove me wrong, as well.

So you care for your gut feeling so much that you, supposedly the one town player with an investigative role, didn't want to take the risk of having to admit your gut feeling was wrong?

I suspected davy was Grandma, I even mentioned in my first post. As much as a Grandma seer isn't as good as a Grinch seer, it would still at least let us know not to vote that person. Also, I basically just moved the names one down for each person. The only one I didn't message was BDS, for obvious reasons.

So you claim to have seered me to be able to let us know not to vote for me, and... you didnt? Not even when two players (Toby and Oricorio) expressed that it was about 50/50 if they wanted to vote for me, I already had a self vote on me, and you weren't even available for day end to prevent a lynching on me?

This all seems very remeniscent of Lantern game, even down to the fact that you claim to have seered me (with a different seering result, I'll give you that).

[THC]

Anyway, time to revise my earlier post now that THC has claimed.

THC is lying as I'm not Grandma, and it would have been impossible for the seer to mistake me for Grandma as no other role can be seered orange.

BDS, Oricorio and TZP all haven't counterclaimed, meaning the true seer must either be dead or inactive.

Davy, why are you voting me? Even before THC claimed, I made it pretty clear that I was just passing along information.

Because without THC's claim, there's no way to know if this seer you claimed contacted you actually exists. Even if town were to force you to reveal, you could have easily said you were actually the seer and pretended to have been contacted in an attempt to not get wolf'd N3.

Also, it would be nice if everyone could reveal the messages they got from THC; I am mainly interested in what names show up over and over again in the messages.

This is what I got:

Ok, I told Oricorio that if I die tonight, Toby is the Grinch. So if I die tonight, Oricorio is the Grinch trying to frame Toby. If I don't die, then BDS is the Grinch.

[TZP]

Sorry for my absence yesterday, I had a really shitty day and couldn't muster the energy for TWG. Also not feeling like delving into all the posts rn, but I can't leave a seer fake-claim hanging.

TZP is lying as I'm not Grandma, and it would have been impossible for the seer to mistake me for Grandma as no other role can be seered orange.

BDS and Oricorio have already posted extensively since TZP's claim so I don't believe they are the seer, meaning the true seer must either be dead, inactive or THC (which would explain his fixation on BDS).

I think with that I've addressed all the points made against me since my last post, but please do notify me if I missed any.

As said, I'm going to sleep now and formulate my thoughts on the other players tomorrow before the phase update.

[N1 Posts:]

N1 Posts:This is a meaningful contribution for how early it is. My instinct is that a wolf would agree with this as a best strategy, but probably not be the first one to push it. I think wolves on NSM tend to contribute to but not drive aggressively strategy discussion, although of course Davy's seniority typically prompts him to take an early leading role.

I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that I (nearly) always start the game with mechanical discussion. It's kinda my thing (along with big plays with high payoffs, that never seem to actually pay off).

I've already stated I disagree with the reasoning against Grandma!Oricorio. Oricorio said something to the effect that I didn't make an argument based on this, and that's true: I don't find it to be alignment-indicative. I understand why he said it and I think it's faulty reasoning, that's it.
GTH reasoning on BDS on the basis of mostly-agreeing posts that he will later walk back. I don't find this to be suspicious.

D1 posts:
His suspicion list pushes me and Math as present but substance-free players, but still has Oricorio ahead of us on the list as a top Grandma suspicion, while not even responding to the critique I had of his argument. This more than anything else is the biggest piece of evidence toward Grandma!Davy in my opinion.

It seems I've missed the 'I'd still lean town' in your post that you are referring to (capitalizing 'Grynch' and 'Grandma' but not 'town' must have thrown me off) and thought you were agreeing with my statement that Oricorio was acting suspicious rather than critiquing me. My bad.

As for my response to the critique, I never read Oricorio's posts in Lantern game as pro- or anti-Strange Man, just thought he was putting the spotlight on the Lantern's too much. Just like how he has been putting the spotlight on Grandma too much this game for my liking. The fact that Oricorio self-meta'd it as pro-Strange Man propaganda doesn't really mean much to me wrt forming my argument.

So BDS made a post about THC's point looking worse from BDS's perspective when looking at only the non-opener non-TWC posts, and about being suspicious of me backpedalling from my suspicion on him. I'm not really interested in discussing the first part, because we're just not going to agree on that and feel like I've adressed the second part in my reply to Oricorio two posts up, so I'm moving on.

"Slight wolflean" on TZP, "he just agreed with what was said earlier" doesn't that kind of describe you at the beginning of the game?

I can see the similarity, but for me the difference is that I brought a clear plan to the table with my first post that considered all the possible seering result (I had not seen TZP post anything similar to that at that point), had a wolf lean on you that was not mentioned by anyone before and it was earlier on in the game, where there is fewer going on to base your thoughts on.