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NinSheetMusic => Submission Center => Submission Archive => Topic started by: Zeta on April 17, 2017, 02:38:40 PM

Title: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Zeta on April 17, 2017, 02:38:40 PM
Submission Information:

Series: Super Mario
Game: Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga
Console: Game Boy Advance
Title: Come On!
Instrumentation Solo Piano
Arranger: Supahstar Saga (http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?action=profile;u=5198)


Replacement Information:

Links to Existing Sheet: MUS (http://www.ninsheetmusic.org/download/mus/1831) | MIDI (http://www.ninsheetmusic.org/download/mid/1831) | PDF (http://www.ninsheetmusic.org/download/pdf/1831)
Replacement Type: Edit (existing arranger remains)

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Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: LeviR.star on April 17, 2017, 02:43:01 PM
To be honest, Static's sheet doesn't really need replacing. It updated a much worse version not too long ago, and this sheet really isn't that much different.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: ThatHiddenCharacter on April 17, 2017, 02:47:58 PM
Quote from: LeviR.star on April 17, 2017, 02:43:01 PMTo be honest, Static's sheet doesn't really need replacing. It updated a much worse version not too long ago, and this sheet really isn't that much different.
Levi is probably right on this, but don't let that stop you from arranging! Maybe you could look for songs that definitely need replacing (Ex: I'm currently working on a replacement for Dr. Mario - Fever) or arranging a song that hasn't been arranged, yet.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 02:48:29 PM
In Static's sheet, the tempo is a bit off, there's a wrong note or two, and the notes aren't very well spaced out. I think that those things alone should warrant a replacement.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: ThatHiddenCharacter on April 17, 2017, 02:49:36 PM
Quote from: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 02:48:29 PMIn Static's sheet, the tempo is a bit off, there's a wrong note or two, and the notes aren't very well spaced out. I think that those things alone should warrant a replacement.
I believe there's a separate thread for those kinds of errors. Can someone get a link? I don't remember what the thread is.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Dudeman on April 17, 2017, 02:50:09 PM
petition to change the arranger name to HEHEHE I AM A SUPAHSTAR SAGA
Quote from: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 02:48:29 PMIn Static's sheet, the tempo is a bit off, there's a wrong note or two, and the notes aren't very well spaced out. I think that those things alone should warrant a replacement.
If this is the case, then this shouldn't be a challenge-type replacement. S/he's free to submit a replacement as long as this is changed.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: WaluigiTime64 on April 17, 2017, 02:51:32 PM
Some people go here (http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?topic=6181.0).
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 02:52:28 PM
Supahstar Saga is short for HEHEHE I AM A SUPAHSTAR SAGA, yes
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Dudeman on April 17, 2017, 02:54:07 PM
Quote from: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 02:52:28 PMSupahstar Saga is short for HEHEHE I AM A SUPAHSTAR SAGA, yes
PRAISE
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 02:57:33 PM
Another issue with the original sheet is that many of the right-hand dyads are inverted. This isn't necessarily wrong, but since we naturally hear the melody in the top note of a chord, it sounds a bit off.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: ThatHiddenCharacter on April 17, 2017, 02:59:16 PM
The more I hear, the more it sounds like this song really does need a replacement. Kudos to you, Supah!
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 03:09:38 PM
Thanks, ThatHiddenCharacter! I based this off of a MIDI ripped from the ROM, so this isn't really the work of my ear, but I do think I arranged it well.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: LeviR.star on April 17, 2017, 03:12:58 PM
Quote from: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 02:48:29 PMIn Static's sheet, the tempo is a bit off, there's a wrong note or two, and the notes aren't very well spaced out. I think that those things alone should warrant a replacement.

Point out the wrong notes, verify with a tempo tapper, and fix your .pdf.

Tempo Tapper (http://www.all8.com/tools/bpm.htm)

Seriously, replacements aren't needed unless the issues are major. There are plenty of other Superstar Saga songs that can be arranged, and songs for many other games, for that matter. I'm not trying to discourage you, but I wouldn't waste my time trying to perfect an already good sheet like Static's.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Dudeman on April 17, 2017, 03:15:50 PM
Oh no please, perfecting sheets should absolutely be encouraged! Some people are better at sprucing up others' work than creating their own from scratch. The only problem with this submission is the replacement type; if that gets changed, then we can move on to checking the fixes.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 03:19:58 PM
I think that sheets should always be ready to be replaced by better ones.

Dudeman, what was the problem with my submission type? I didn't consult Static's arrangement at all when making this one. Since the song has simple instrumentation, it's natural that the arrangements would end up pretty similar.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: WaluigiTime64 on April 17, 2017, 03:21:53 PM
Yeah but a Challenge Arrangement type means checking all of the notes again.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 03:22:42 PM
What do you mean by "check them again"?
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Latios212 on April 17, 2017, 03:23:15 PM
This strikes me as a bit discourteous. How would you feel if I found a wrong note or other minor error in your sheet, all other things perfect, and decided to arrange it myself to replace yours?

The logic behind challenge replacements is that the old sheet is of low quality and in need of replacing. Edit replacements are the way to go for small fixes.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 03:27:13 PM
Sure, they may be minor errors, but there are a lot of them.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Dudeman on April 17, 2017, 03:28:26 PM
It may help your case if you could go through and specifically point out the errors you found in Static's sheet, and then show what you fixed.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Latios212 on April 17, 2017, 03:31:06 PM
Quote from: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 03:27:13 PMSure, they may be minor errors, but there are a lot of them.
You didn't address my post. Everything you mentioned so far is either subjective or fixable by a couple of clicks.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 03:45:52 PM
Okay, I'll list the issues I see.

- Tempo is 140, should be 138 (yes, I used a tapper)

- First bass note in measures 1 and 2 should be dotted eighth note, not quarter note.

- Triads in bars 8, 16, 24 should be dyads

- No dynamic change or accents on the bridge

Things that aren't necessarily wrong, but I would do differently:

- Some off-beat eighth notes (e.g. fourth treble dyad) could be written as sixteenth notes.

- With three bars per line, the notes don't have a lot of space between them. Since this piece's rhythm is pretty complex, it could be a bit difficult to read.

- The key signature doesn't include the C-flat. Since the Mixolydian mode is fully consistent in this piece, I think it should be represented in the key signature.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Static on April 17, 2017, 04:19:10 PM
I agree with most of changes but I still have a few suggestions for you:

- The key should still be Db major, not Cb major. The Cb is an accidental, in this case a b7 scale degree. When notating key signatures, it's always better to go by the tonal center instead of based off whatever mode the piece is in or what accidentals are there.

- Your bass in m1-2 is wrong; mine is actually correct. actually after listening I see your bassline there is actually correct; I apologize

- In the LH in m3, 5, 7, and 9 on beat 3.5, that note should be staccato.

- Also, the beaming, while I know it's sometimes used, looks wonky and is unusual. I would suggest keeping normal beaming to make it easier to read imo, but if you think it helps enough to warrant the change, then by all means keep it.

- Those dotted 8ths in the LH on beat 4.25 of m12, 14, and 16 aren't actually there.

- I know you said the inversions in mine are inaccurate, which is true; but that was to preserve the original's voice leadings edit: your voice leadings are actually better after comparing it to the original

With that said, I don't see the point in this being a challenge replacement when you didn't really change much. The only substantial changes you made were inverting the chords, changing the tempo slightly, and removing the triads (which btw I had for a reason because that bottom note is actually in the original), which I think is good, but with those being the only substantial changes, you should've submitted this as an edit replacement. After all, stuff like this is the reason why there are multiple different replacement options in the first place.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 05:16:54 PM
In response to your first point, I disagree with you. We have the same key signatures for Ionian and Aeolian, so why not for other modes? Here's a StackExchange post with more discussion: https://music.stackexchange.com/questions/930/key-signature-for-writing-in-modes-other-than-major-and-minor

For m3, 5, 7, 9, it's a bit complicated. Checking the sequence, this would be a verbatim transcription: http://i.imgur.com/fnqpvxc.png.
However, the low notes are both impractical to play and barely audible. I think that your option is the best, so I can change it.

I definitely hear two bass notes around m12, 14, 16.

The only reason I submitted this as a challenge is that I've had this arrangement for a while, and only submitted it to NSM now. If you really want me to submit as an edit, I can do that.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: mastersuperfan on April 17, 2017, 05:41:26 PM
Quote from: Static on April 17, 2017, 04:19:10 PM- The key should still be Db major, not Cb major. The Cb is an accidental, in this case a b7 scale degree. When notating key signatures, it's always better to go by the tonal center instead of based off whatever mode the piece is in or what accidentals are there.

^^

As I've seen, it's generally written with the tonal center, which came up in a discussion in an OoT submission way back. Olimar took a picture of a music theory book:

Large
(http://s29.postimg.org/d6iyb9g9j/image.jpg)
[close]

(Though it doesn't explicitly mention key signatures, the description of the modes of major and minor suggest that we use major and minor key signatures for those modes, which is what we've generally been doing on the site.)

 And, to that guy in StackExchange, in D Phrygian, you'd write it with a Bb key signature and add Eb's, not write it with F# and C#.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Static on April 17, 2017, 05:50:38 PM
I wholly aggree with msf's comment here, but I figured I'd add in this (http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?topic=8507.msg343996#msg343996) to help clarify even more.

Although you could definitely argue either way, I believe reserving the keysig for tonic identification and then using accidentals to signal the modes helps the reader out more. In this way, they can easily tell what the tonic is as well as what mode the peice is in.

As far as the replacement thing goes, I'm perfectly fine with you keeping this as a challenge replacement. However, in the future, remember to keep in mind that we do have other ways of replacing files, including edit replacements as well as the sheet music errors thread (http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?topic=6181.0) for smaller adjustments like a couple wrong notes or tempo issues.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Altissimo on April 17, 2017, 06:25:59 PM
im one of those people who believes in the virtue of notating mode over tonal center in key sig but trust me when i say you are not going to convince any updater of that, just leave it as Db and dont argue lmao its a waste of breath
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: ThatHiddenCharacter on April 17, 2017, 06:36:13 PM
Quote from: Altissimo on April 17, 2017, 06:25:59 PMim one of those people who believes in the virtue of notating mode over tonal center in key sig but trust me when i say you are not going to convince any updater of that, just leave it as Db and dont argue lmao its a waste of breath
I agree with Alti. I have a song that is in the exact same situation, except the minor variations of these keys. Tonal, the song is Eb minor, but going by accidentals, the song is Ab minor. There's no use arguing with the updaters on this because they are the ones who have to accept the piece for it to be on-site.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 06:43:08 PM
Should I just submit a new version through the NSM bot, then?
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Latios212 on April 17, 2017, 06:43:47 PM
You can edit your submission through the NSM Panel.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 07:34:57 PM
Ok, I'll put up a new sheet tomorrow

QuoteTonal, the song is Eb minor, but going by accidentals, the song is Ab minor.

Unrelated, but you should notate that as D# minor.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Altissimo on April 17, 2017, 07:37:28 PM
actually i would think Eb minor would be better since you wouldn't have any double accidentals
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Supahstar Saga on April 17, 2017, 07:42:26 PM
I don't know the piece, but generally, six sharps with a consistent natural are better than six flats with a consistent flat.

There are times when Ab minor is useful, though, e.g., Metal Crusher.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Altissimo on April 17, 2017, 07:43:37 PM
oh i thought you meant eb minor in general should be notated as d# minor, my bad
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Olimar12345 on April 18, 2017, 08:51:28 PM
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this submission will not be necessary. The hosted file is not in need of a complete replacement, and like stated before me, just needs some minor editing. Fixing that sheet can take place either in this topic (http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?topic=6181.0) or via an edit replacement submission in which the hosted file is edited. If you choose to do the latter, you are free to use this topic to do so.

In the future, challenge replacements are only to be used if the arrangement being challenged is clearly from a time before quality control was in effect.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: ThatHiddenCharacter on April 19, 2017, 04:35:08 AM
Quote from: Olimar12345 on April 18, 2017, 08:51:28 PMIn the future, challenge replacements are only to be used if the arrangement being challenged is clearly from a time before quality control was in effect.
*Cough* Dr. Mario - Fever *Cough*
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: LeviR.star on April 19, 2017, 10:41:35 AM
Quote from: Olimar12345 on April 18, 2017, 08:51:28 PMI hate to be the bearer of bad news, but this submission will not be necessary. The hosted file is not in need of a complete replacement, and like stated before me, just needs some minor editing. Fixing that sheet can take place either in this topic (http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?topic=6181.0) or via an edit replacement submission in which the hosted file is edited. If you choose to do the latter, you are free to use this topic to do so.

In the future, challenge replacements are only to be used if the arrangement being challenged is clearly from a time before quality control was in effect.

Thank you, Olimar.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Static on April 19, 2017, 03:14:57 PM
I replaced Supahstar's files with edited versions of my originals, with most of his changes after I verified them. In addition to those changes, I improved the dynamics, articulations, and formatting a bit.

If Supahstar agrees with these, then this sheet is pretty much good to go.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Supahstar Saga on April 19, 2017, 04:02:04 PM
This one looks good!
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Static on April 19, 2017, 04:02:53 PM
Cool.
Title: Re: [GBA] Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga - "Come On!" (Replacement) by Supahstar Saga
Post by: Zeta on April 19, 2017, 04:03:01 PM
This submission has been accepted by Static (http://forum.ninsheetmusic.org/index.php?action=profile;u=4960).

~Zeta, your friendly NSM-Bot